Poole 2018

[BurntFaceMan]

57 minutes ago, Sherborne Green said:

I find it very comical about this rider is better than that rider. He will score more than him. Whoever owns a team selects the riders they want, subject of course to the riders agreement.

I actually couldn't care less. It's only when you see Gavan and Steve banging on about who the better rider is that I can't help but wind them up.

[STEVEHOLS54]

57 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

The Kurtz v Morris debate is very interesting just looked up some stats Morris rode with the World Champion 40 times in the season Doyle won 22/18 just shows you Morris had the tougher campaign both are very talented along with Fricke and J.Holder.

I think both you and Gavan have provided interesting and fair comments in this forum discussion on Kurtz v Morris which at least has kept some interest in the Poole 2018 forum in these dark and dreary close season nights.

I support Poole but have to agree Morris was the better rider in 2017 in the Prem, especially when you also factor in Morris's bonus points.

But I think that although Morris is only 2.5 years older than Kurtz we need to look closer at the stats which tells its own story.

Morris came to UK in 2010 as a young wild rider who gained a bit of a reputation being compared to often to Darcy Ward which was unfair. He has ridden Prem (or equiv) for a long time with his first season in the top flight 2011 where he rode 17 times with a GSA of 5.30. Since then his GSA's have been 5.78 - 5.90 - 6.31 - 6.70 - 6.41 - 8.87.

So over 7 seasons we have seen the emergence of Morris into a heat leader and being 24 in June his riding has matured. Remember that is 7 seasons not one or two. He has toned down some of his wild behaviour which got him into hot water a few times and pressed on in UK as a top rider, although not quite broken into POL EXL, but still plenty of time. That youthful over exuberance has gone and now you have the young man who is a top UK rider.

Brady Kurtz has ridden 2 seasons in the Prem and at 21 has achieved GSA's of 6.36 then last seasons 8.08. Not bad for 2 seasons in the top flight and last season also had an injury that dragged his GSA down a bit as he had to find fitness again after the injury later in the season in a team that also struggled.

Who ultimately is the better long term prospect ?? - Based on what the short term shows maybe Kurtz, but after what Doyle achieved I think he reset the bar on what riders can achieve even into their thirties.

As a Poole supporter I hate the pressure that is piled on him with the comparisons to a top riding Darcy Ward or Chris Holder (when he was top). As a young guy finding his way he needs to find his level at his own pace and not just because he rode so well last year he will improve on that this year.

Morris had 6 seasons in the top flight prior to his 8.87 season so perhaps we need to put things into perspective. Similar with Fricke and Jack Holder. I think we are fortunate to see these young Aussies with obvious class, same as I hope to be saying the same with young Woryna in the coming years.

I appreciate that these things keep the forum going in these quiet days but you have to sometimes dig below the surface when comparing say Morris to Kurtz. Hopefully they will both win their share of races and will indeed be interesting how they shape up when riding against each other this coming season.

[Sidney the robin]

16 minutes ago, STEVEHOLS54 said:

I think both you and Gavan have provided interesting and fair comments in this forum discussion on Kurtz v Morris which at least has kept some interest in the Poole 2018 forum in these dark and dreary close season nights.

I support Poole but have to agree Morris was the better rider in 2017 in the Prem, especially when you also factor in Morris's bonus points.

But I think that although Morris is only 2.5 years older than Kurtz we need to look closer at the stats which tells its own story.

Morris came to UK in 2010 as a young wild rider who gained a bit of a reputation being compared to often to Darcy Ward which was unfair. He has ridden Prem (or equiv) for a long time with his first season in the top flight 2011 where he rode 17 times with a GSA of 5.30. Since then his GSA's have been 5.78 - 5.90 - 6.31 - 6.70 - 6.41 - 8.87.

So over 7 seasons we have seen the emergence of Morris into a heat leader and being 24 in June his riding has matured. Remember that is 7 seasons not one or two. He has toned down some of his wild behaviour which got him into hot water a few times and pressed on in UK as a top rider, although not quite broken into POL EXL, but still plenty of time. That youthful over exuberance has gone and now you have the young man who is a top UK rider.

Brady Kurtz has ridden 2 seasons in the Prem and at 21 has achieved GSA's of 6.36 then last seasons 8.08. Not bad for 2 seasons in the top flight and last season also had an injury that dragged his GSA down a bit as he had to find fitness again after the injury later in the season in a team that also struggled.

Who ultimately is the better long term prospect ?? - Based on what the short term shows maybe Kurtz, but after what Doyle achieved I think he reset the bar on what riders can achieve even into their thirties.

As a Poole supporter I hate the pressure that is piled on him with the comparisons to a top riding Darcy Ward or Chris Holder (when he was top). As a young guy finding his way he needs to find his level at his own pace and not just because he rode so well last year he will improve on that this year.

Morris had 6 seasons in the top flight prior to his 8.87 season so perhaps we need to put things into perspective. Similar with Fricke and Jack Holder. I think we are fortunate to see these young Aussies with obvious class, same as I hope to be saying the same with young Woryna in the coming years.

I appreciate that these things keep the forum going in these quiet days but you have to sometimes dig below the surface when comparing say Morris to Kurtz. Hopefully they will both win their share of races and will indeed be interesting how they shape up when riding against each other this coming season.

Good post and it is not about being right or wrong Morris,Kurtz,Fricke,J.Holder are all riders i would pay 18 pounds to see ride. I  have enjoyed watching Nick progress and  Rosco should take alot of credit for that.

[LisaColette]

18 hours ago, Gavan said:

Why is that nice try? 

In the uk Morris almost a 9 pointer and Brady just over 8. 

No doubting Kurtz has the potential but he isn't even close yet to what Morris does over here.

As I've said if he cuts out the silly duff rides and mistakes he could push on to the level Morris has achieved in the Uk

So they are within a point of each other then? Yep, such a massive gap. Not 

[Gavan]

6 minutes ago, lisa-colette said:

So they are within a point of each other then? Yep, such a massive gap. Not 

wow and yet your still not understanding anything.

never said there is a massive gap as you put it but there is a gap. If Kurtz eradicates his duff rides he will close that gap and maybe average more than Morris.

on the world stage Brady is ahead of Morris but in the uk he isnt simple as that

[therefused]

£80 a head is good value? And it maybe includes entertainment? Jesus Christ what is Shovlar smoking that is extortionate 

[LisaColette]

7 minutes ago, Gavan said:

wow and yet your still not understanding anything.

never said there is a massive gap as you put it but there is a gap. If Kurtz eradicates his duff rides he will close that gap and maybe average more than Morris.

on the world stage Brady is ahead of Morris but in the uk he isnt simple as that

You said 'not even close' that suggests a big gap to me! But hey maybe I'm just being picky! 

[Steve Shovlar]

6 minutes ago, therefused said:

£80 a head is good value? And it maybe includes entertainment? Jesus Christ what is Shovlar smoking that is extortionate 

Guess its down to lifestyle? A nice evening meal out to a good standard restaurant will cost around £2-240 for 2 of us with wine. So 160 a couple seems ok providing the quality is there. 

I was in Padstow recently with a client and lunch cost £180 at Rick Steins restaurant. I guess some people on here think a Harvester or Beefeater is quality eating out!

[stevebrum]

3 hours ago, Gavan said:

I find this incredible that some Poole fans can be that daft not to see facts!

2017 Brady Kurtz was not as good as Nick Morris in the top flight. There is no discussion on this its fact

2018 Brady Kurtz has the potential to be as good if not better than Morris is over here.

You cant compare what they do abroad unless your Steve Shovlar who is saying Brady is better in Poland but yet thinks it doesnt matter that Tungate beat Kurtz in the Aussie champs!

If your team building you may well have Kurtz as his average is nearly a point lower and his will go up you would think and Morris may stay the same.

I agree Brady may go on to better things than Morris but at the moment IN THE UK Morris is simply better than Kurtz.......you cant argue that.

Yet the same duo will still claim Kurtz is better.  As comical as it is. 

1 hour ago, BurntFaceMan said:

I actually couldn't care less. It's only when you see Gavan and Steve banging on about who the better rider is that I can't help but wind them up.

At least we are all clear that Morris is the better of the 2 in the UK.  Glad that's sorted.

[Steve Shovlar]

1 minute ago, stevebrum said:

Yet the same duo will still claim Kurtz is better.  As comical as it is. 

At least we are all clear that Morris is the better of the 2 in the UK.  Glad that's sorted.

But your view point along with Gavans is flawed.

Who is the better rider? Zagar or Morris? Simple question.  Anyone who knows anything about speedway knows that Zagar is. Yet his average is lower than Morris. He can come into the BV team on an eight. So do you really think Morris is a better rider than Zagar because his average is higher? Or for that matter that Kurtz is currently better than Zagar?

[stevebrum]

2 minutes ago, Steve Shovlar said:

But your view point along with Gavans is flawed.

Who is the better rider? Zagar or Morris? Simple question.  Anyone who knows anything about speedway knows that Zagar is. Yet his average is lower than Morris. He can come into the BV team on an eight. So do you really think Morris is a better rider than Zagar because his average is higher? Or for that matter that Kurtz is currently better than Zagar?

Zagar had an average from the old format of only riding heat leaders,  the same formula that Lindgren achieved low 6 on.

I agree Zagar is the better rider and is World Class. That's why I didn't compare Chris Holder to Morris. There are natural flaws. 

You are trying to compare a 23 year old with more top flight experience with one who is 21 and only has 2 years experience. Yet you would argue the younger with less experience and a lower average (naturally for both) is already the better rider when at this stage of his career in the UK he is isn't. It's fairly simple really. 

 

 

[Steve Shovlar]

Just now, stevebrum said:

Zagar had an average from the old format of only riding heat leaders,  the same formula that Lindgren achieved low 6 on.

I agree Zagar is the better rider and is World Class. That's why I didn't compare Chris Holder to Morris. There are natural flaws. 

You are trying to compare a 23 year old with more top flight experience with one who is 21 and only has 2 years experience. Yet you would argue the younger with less experience and a lower average (naturally for both) is already the better rider when at this stage of his career in the UK he is isn't. It's fairly simple really. 

 

 

OK. Compare their averages after two seasons. Morris at the end of his second season was 5.90. Kurtz at the same stage of his British career was 8.08. Now you argue that his average now is higher than Kurtz so he is the better rider, but there is much more to take into consideration.

[BWitcher]

4 minutes ago, Steve Shovlar said:

OK. Compare their averages after two seasons. Morris at the end of his second season was 5.90. Kurtz at the same stage of his British career was 8.08. Now you argue that his average now is higher than Kurtz so he is the better rider, but there is much more to take into consideration.

Two different questions. Who is better and who was better at a certain age are very different.

At the moment, Morris is better than Kurtz in the UK. Indisputable. 

That may change next season, time will tell.

[A ORLOV]

5 minutes ago, Steve Shovlar said:

OK. Compare their averages after two seasons. Morris at the end of his second season was 5.90. Kurtz at the same stage of his British career was 8.08. Now you argue that his average now is higher than Kurtz so he is the better rider, but there is much more to take into consideration.

But that is flawed as the years when Brady was riding were against lower riders, most of the top riders had left the UK for the continent.  Next .

[Gavan]

10 minutes ago, Steve Shovlar said:

OK. Compare their averages after two seasons. Morris at the end of his second season was 5.90. Kurtz at the same stage of his British career was 8.08. Now you argue that his average now is higher than Kurtz so he is the better rider, but there is much more to take into consideration.

why on earth are you going off on some weird tangent to try and argue against a fact!

WHOSE AVERAGE IS BETTER IN THE UK???????

Nobody is saying Kurtz might not average 9 this season and do better than Morris

Nobody is disputing Kurtz does better abroad.

But until he averages the same as Morris or better in the UK then over here he simply is inferior...........end of discussion.

And yes Zagar is better than Morris........but in 2016 the format was different..plus if he averaged lower then Nick then no he isnt as good over here. Surely its not to hard to understand

 

 

[hrhbig]

13 hours ago, stevebrum said:

Assumed Iversen.

We do know.  Ivan won 6 world titles when the opposition were probably stronger. 

Ivan was totally professional throughout his career. 

Darcy was indeed naturally gifted but lacked the professionalism.

Did not realise he rode for King Lynn in 2017 as number one

, cant remember him scoring much

Edited January 15, 2018 by hrhbig
missed comment

[foreverblue]

1 hour ago, Steve Shovlar said:

Guess its down to lifestyle? A nice evening meal out to a good standard restaurant will cost around £2-240 for 2 of us with wine. So 160 a couple seems ok providing the quality is there. 

I was in Padstow recently with a client and lunch cost £180 at Rick Steins restaurant. I guess some people on here think a Harvester or Beefeater is quality eating out!

I went to his place in Falmouth slightly lower key and better suited to my budget!

[Steve Shovlar]

I have been to his bistro in Padstow which is lower key and more relaxed dining. Very nice as well. Not tried the one in Sandbanks, frequented by Harry Redknapp, Graeme Souness etc.

[BurntFaceMan]

1 hour ago, Steve Shovlar said:

Guess its down to lifestyle? A nice evening meal out to a good standard restaurant will cost around £2-240 for 2 of us with wine. So 160 a couple seems ok providing the quality is there. 

I was in Padstow recently with a client and lunch cost £180 at Rick Steins restaurant. I guess some people on here think a Harvester or Beefeater is quality eating out!

Where are you getting the fine dining bit from Steve? So far they've not told us a thing. For all we know it could be fish and chips with James Shanes!

[BurntFaceMan]

43 minutes ago, Gavan said:

why on earth are you going off on some weird tangent to try and argue against a fact!

WHOSE AVERAGE IS BETTER IN THE UK???????

Nobody is saying Kurtz might not average 9 this season and do better than Morris

Nobody is disputing Kurtz does better abroad.

But until he averages the same as Morris or better in the UK then over here he simply is inferior...........end of discussion.

And yes Zagar is better than Morris........but in 2016 the format was different..plus if he averaged lower then Nick then no he isnt as good over here. Surely its not to hard to understand

 

 

But you've been saying the entire time that Morris was the better rider in the UK, not that he was the higher averaged rider in the UK. Kurtz is the better rider, but Nick scored better on average last season.