Poole 2018

[DC2]

15 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

You most certainly did say lets take advantage

I have quoted in full this time to show so 

In summary you are happy to mix in the Brits if Poole get a Flint or a Kemp.

Im sure if they are destined elsewhere you will not have such a keen interest in their development as it would not be to Pooles advantage

 

 

Spot on. Poole always want to sign the stars at the top of their game but as soon as some form drops off Poole sack them rather than stick by them.

 

Why would Kemp, Flint, Kinsley or Jenkins want to be Poole’s next James Shanes?

 

[Mattfordfan]

Just now, DC2 said:

 

Spot on. Poole always want to sign the stars at the top of their game but as soon as some form drops off Poole sack them rather than stick by them.

 

Why would Kemp, Flint, Kinsley or Jenkins want to be Poole’s next James Shanes?

 

Matt wouldn't want any of those anyway.

Only way any of those would get a team spot at Poole is if British Speedway bosses forced Matt Ford into using one of them.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Matt Ford Fan

[STEVEHOLS54]

3 minutes ago, Badge said:

Take offense Poole fans if you like, but here's another Ipswich fan with an opinion

From the outside looking in, so to speak, Poole have been most successful because they were, notice were, able to bring in successful riders to their teams, trick, loram, ward, holder, all riders who cut their speedway teeth at other clubs before Poole came calling.

Just using shanes as an example, they never stick with anyone who they "feel" isn't cutting the mustard. British boys have no future at Poole because they aren't allowed to progress naturally, which is such a shame, because they seem to like Aussies better 

I could say more but won't 

No offence taken and sensible post.

Ward & Holder came from lower div teams such as KL and IOW iwhere as young riders they were rightly cutting their teeth. Poole signed them as a Prem/Elite team as they saw their potential and were willing to take a risk on non proven youngsters.

Shanes was signed mainly to allow Matt more points higher up last season and this and because he had shown some potential in NL. plus had an accomodating low GSA. I am the first to admit that LAST season he had shown potential and even though he was not showing signs of pushing on.BUT he has been riding in Speedway since 2013 for Coventry 2nd so isnt new to the scene being 21. Honestly I have reservations as to where he will end up in the sport as get impression his real loves are grass track and long track. Just an opinion. Ultimately many know he has suffered as a result of others not performing. But lets not lose sight of te fact that Matt would NOT have released him had others performed. Teams like Swindon could be patient with Zach as they had other relieve the pressure but I think Zach has shown the potential. Is one year younger and had 2 seasons less in the sport having started only 2015.

Another example is Newman. A repetition of injuries have for sure curtailed his progress, but to be honest neither at Plymouth/Ips (who didnt retain him ) so far at Lakeside and also imo for Leicester, has he shown he has moved forward and progressed. For a rider who has been riding since 2007 (11 years) and is 27 this year. Dont you think he should have moved on even taking into  a/c his injuries. he should be at the top of his game now but for me he will always be a lower order rider in both Prem/Champ despite his many years of experience in both leagues.

I think its important that we have a balanced view and not a Poole always dump young UK Brits when the going gets tough. I am sure Matt would like to develop young UK talent if it is really there but not just always because he/they are a Brit.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

34 minutes ago, STEVEHOLS54 said:

Yes but that is in  respect of the young Brits coming through and nothing to do with Milik.

 

My comments were about mixing this obvious talent coming through together with some of the existing talent such as mixing say a Kemp/Jenkins/Flint (say 2 per team) and putting it with other established young riders (such as Kurtz/Holder Jr) and also adding experience such as say Holder Sr and Josh G etc. That way we are taking advantage of presenting all that is good in Speedway - Up and coming new talent only say the 16/17/18 year olds  - Exciting existing young talent - Experienced riders like the Holders/Josh G's/Klindt's. Name who you like just taking examples. Mix these young raw talents with the bigger guys so they race against similar talent and more experienced in the same race. It's just idea's going forward.

The way you put the comment over was as if you  were insinuating I was trying to get Milik on a low GSA just to fiddle around the points available to Matt if he goes down the route I mentioned. If Milik does not qualify for a reduction as I thought then of course Matt would have to rethink, but even then I think its a highly unlikely scenario even if I wished it. Remember I did  quantify my comments with the fact I was playing a "Fantasy team" building exercise/discussion.

Just so we are clear.

But the post I quoted only mentioned the NL and young Brits - it had nothing to do with Milik

[STEVEHOLS54]

44 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

But the post I quoted only mentioned the NL and young Brits - it had nothing to do with Milik

My last sentence on the subject of mixing young Brits with  experience etc said and I qte

"Let's take advantage of it combining youth and talent (in our own way) like the Poles do. Even if it is a case of small steps"

I  was making that comment as a lover of Speedway (like most on the Forum) and not Poole taking advantage in its own way of creaming off the top 2 or 3 youngsters (in its own way as you mention) and building the team accordingly.

The let's take advantage and in our own way comments were meant that we as British Speedway should do it this way. In our own way I meant in a minature version of how the Poles seem to do it taking 2 POL youngsters - young established WW talent and experienced WW riders. (By WW talent I mean that to include both British and any other nation).

Of course we can't compare it to the Poles who are light years ahead of us, but as a business/racing model they seem to have the right mix so perhaps we can  follow "In our own way" to give both  supporters and riders the right mix of youth - established young and experienced riders.

We perhaps seem at crossed wires but hopefully this clarifies any misunderstanding of what I was getting at.

[Sidney the robin]

2 hours ago, Matt Ford Fan said:

I know but when you look at the teams Poole had when they won those league titles it's completely different to now.

Look at Man City for example they've won a couple of premiership titles because they had the team......But before the money was invested in them they were only in the Premiership to make the numbers up.

Steve McLaren could manage Bayern Munich and they would still walk the Bundesliga.....Because they have the team.....But the fact is McLaren is not a good manager.

So my point is that Middlo might not be as good as people think he is. I'm not saying he's a poor manager because he isn't. 

People say look at Middlo's record but when you look at the teams we had those year's as well. It makes Middlo's job a lot easier to do.

For example the last 4 league titles. 

2011 - Holder & Ward were in the team.

2013 - Ward, Hancock, Holder, Pawlicki

2014 - Ward, Holder, Janowski, Pawlicki, Milik

2015 - Janowski & Holder as a top two.

Its different times now......Middlo's skills are being put to the test now. Just like every other manager in the league.

Poole have not got the best out of riders in the last few years. We are not talking about 1 or 2 riders we are talking about quite a few riders. So you have to look at the bigger picture and think why is this happening. Who is to blame for consistent underperforming riders. Just like any other sport you have to look at the manager. 

Then you look at Swindon and how well Rosco does with the resources he has and how well he does with his riders. Middlo has done well when he had the teams consisting of riders above. 

I'm spot on regarding Shanes.........Stand by everything I said on that debate. 

The Shane's scenario you have not quite grasped it, no one else as far as i know has backed you on that issue because Poole had bigger issues to address before Shane's.Also on Rosco at Swindon we  have had poor  seasons  as well just like any other club success goes around in cycles.Some of the riders at Poole have  not been good anough  end of certainly this year is that totally Ford who picks them i don't know.The side assembled by Ford this year really was based on POTENTIAL a few risks in there Gavan stated that he got (slated) but it has backfired. Starting  tonight they can try and rectify thing's build on Monday's encouraging performance and push on.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Sidney the robin

[ray c]

1 hour ago, Matt Ford Fan said:

Matt wouldn't want any of those anyway.

Only way any of those would get a team spot at Poole is if British Speedway bosses forced Matt Ford into using one of them.

Just a quick question if all the Poole rider's had rode to there averages who would you have replaced James with ?

[Mattfordfan]

Just now, ray c said:

Just a quick question if all the Poole rider's had rode to there averages who would you have replaced James with ?

You cant replace him if all riders rode to there averages......Because all the replacement options would be just as poor as Shanes. The whole point of a team change is to improve the team. Unless it's a Mitchell Davey type of situation.

For example

Smith for Shanes = Lose lose situation. Neither rider is going to do anything therefore no point in making the change.

[ray c]

1 minute ago, Matt Ford Fan said:

You cant replace him if all riders rode to there averages......Because all the replacement options would be just as poor as Shanes. The whole point of a team change is to improve the team. Unless it's a Mitchell Davey type of situation.

For example

Smith for Shanes = Lose lose situation. Neither rider is going to do anything therefore no point in making the change.

There you go that's what people have been trying to tell you 

[nobber junior]

2 hours ago, Badge said:

Take offense Poole fans if you like, but here's another Ipswich fan with an opinion

From the outside looking in, so to speak, Poole have been most successful because they were, notice were, able to bring in successful riders to their teams, trick, loram, ward, holder, all riders who cut their speedway teeth at other clubs before Poole came calling.

Just using shanes as an example, they never stick with anyone who they "feel" isn't cutting the mustard. British boys have no future at Poole because they aren't allowed to progress naturally, which is such a shame, because they seem to like Aussies better 

I could say more but won't 

Justin EFlkins & Martin Willis ...... forerunners to Kyle Newman & James Shanes

Edited May 30, 2018 by nobber junior

[Mattfordfan]

9 minutes ago, ray c said:

There you go that's what people have been trying to tell you 

No.....They have said that he is a VICTIM of poor performances from others. 

They are trying to act like Shanes was a saint and didn't do anything wrong and it's everyone else's fault. 

Which is wrong. 

 

I have been right from Day 1 regarding Shanes. James scored the vast majority of his points against Poole riders only.

Now. Let's say Shanes is riding with Kasprzak 3 times and Kasprzak cant be bothered so he gives up and retires in those 3 races then James Shanes would have 3 points next to his name.

Some would say 3 points.....Job done.....But it's not job done because he hasn't beaten an opposing rider and only scored points against KK who put in no effort whatsoever. 

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Matt Ford Fan

[nobber junior]

3 minutes ago, Matt Ford Fan said:

No.....They have said that he is a VICTIM of poor performances from others. 

They are trying to act like Shanes was a saint and didn't do anything wrong and it's everyone else's fault. 

Which is wrong. 

 

How anybody could have expected James to do more than he did is beyond me ..... only his second season in the Premiership with only NL experience before that with Kent.

A classic case of the numbers game ..... he got the team place as he fitted in with the others/Sundstrom and it is as simple as that.

The fact that he could be replaced was purely down to others (including Sundstrom) not performing.

It isn't that difficult to understand.

[Badge]

8 minutes ago, nobber junior said:

How anybody could have expected James to do more than he did is beyond me ..... only his second season in the Premiership with only NL experience before that with Kent.

A classic case of the numbers game ..... he got the team place as he fitted in with the others/Sundstrom and it is as simple as that.

The fact that he could be replaced was purely down to others (including Sundstrom) not performing.

It isn't that difficult to understand.

For some it is obviously

[Mattfordfan]

35 minutes ago, nobber junior said:

How anybody could have expected James to do more than he did is beyond me ..... only his second season in the Premiership with only NL experience before that with Kent.

A classic case of the numbers game ..... he got the team place as he fitted in with the others/Sundstrom and it is as simple as that.

The fact that he could be replaced was purely down to others (including Sundstrom) not performing.

It isn't that difficult to understand.

James got sacked because he struggled to beat an opposing rider. Simple as that.

Shanes' scores against opposing riders only. (Not including points scored against Poole riders when being on the receiving end of a 5-1)

BV Home - 2, 0, 0 

BV Away - 0, 0, 1*

Swindon Home - 1, 1*, FD

Wolves Away - 0, 0, 0, 1*

Somerset Away - 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Now Shanes' guest appearances for Somerset

Wolves Away - F, 0, 1

BV Home - 1*, 0, 0 

 

Overall he hasn't achieved his 2.00 point average against opposing riders in 5 of those 7 meeting's

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Matt Ford Fan

[hyabb17]

Just read Matt Ford’s interview in the Echo, honest & open as expected. Fair play for him trying to bring a big hitter over but a thankless task. So who will be the 2nd change? I reckon Sczspaniak will be axed (without trying to wind anyone up, I said he wouldn’t last the season as he wouldn’t be good enough, one season doesn’t make a rider). Who is available....I reckon TJ could be an option, needs to ride in a league where he can score points......This would make Poole strong in reserve but very vunable in heats 11, 13 & 15. Can a team of 6 point riders make the play offs? 

Interested to hear what the masses think? 

Edited May 30, 2018 by hyabb17

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, ray c said:

Just a quick question if all the Poole rider's had rode to there averages who would you have replaced James with ?

What you are saying Ray is if your other riders had rode to there full potential nothing at all would of been said about James.Also with James  when i have seen him  ride  and you know more about him than me he  has rode his nuts off supporters can relate to that.If Swindon could swap Shane's for Smith a big yes from me and that is meant with disrespect to Jack .But I do believe Jack can improve  and he can do that with no pressure as most home supporters hope for a minimum of 2 points per meeting.

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, Matt Ford Fan said:

You cant replace him if all riders rode to there averages......Because all the replacement options would be just as poor as Shanes. The whole point of a team change is to improve the team. Unless it's a Mitchell Davey type of situation.

For example

Smith for Shanes = Lose lose situation. Neither rider is going to do anything therefore no point in making the change.

What a disrespectful post an important 2/3 points can make the difference in winning the meeting.The other week at the Abbey ok we beat Rye House easily but Jack Smith v Max Clegg there meeting's were mini battle's it is a team sport not everyone are World Champion material i have respect for every rider your last sentence tells me you don't.

[Mattfordfan]

1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said:

What a disrespectful post an important 2/3 points can make the difference in winning the meeting.The other week at the Abbey ok we beat Rye House easily but Jack Smith v Max Clegg there meeting's were mini battle's it is a team sport not everyone are World Champion material i have respect for every rider your last sentence tells me you don't.

You're just easily offended. I was asked a question so I answered it truthfully. 

 

[nobber junior]

53 minutes ago, Matt Ford Fan said:

James got sacked because he struggled to beat an opposing rider. Simple as that.

Shanes' scores against opposing riders only. (Not including points scored against Poole riders when being on the receiving end of a 5-1)

BV Home - 2, 0, 0 

BV Away - 0, 0, 1*

Swindon Home - 1, 1*, FD

Wolves Away - 0, 0, 0, 1*

Somerset Away - 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Now Shanes' guest appearances for Somerset

Wolves Away - F, 0, 1

BV Home - 1*, 0, 0 

 

Overall he hasn't achieved his 2.00 point average against opposing riders in 5 of those 7 meeting's

 

Winning the league or not winning the league was never going to be purely down to James achieving, or not achieving, his 2.00 point average was it .....

 

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, STEVEHOLS54 said:

My last sentence on the subject of mixing young Brits with  experience etc said and I qte

"Let's take advantage of it combining youth and talent (in our own way) like the Poles do. Even if it is a case of small steps"

I  was making that comment as a lover of Speedway (like most on the Forum) and not Poole taking advantage in its own way of creaming off the top 2 or 3 youngsters (in its own way as you mention) and building the team accordingly.

The let's take advantage and in our own way comments were meant that we as British Speedway should do it this way. In our own way I meant in a minature version of how the Poles seem to do it taking 2 POL youngsters - young established WW talent and experienced WW riders. (By WW talent I mean that to include both British and any other nation).

Of course we can't compare it to the Poles who are light years ahead of us, but as a business/racing model they seem to have the right mix so perhaps we can  follow "In our own way" to give both  supporters and riders the right mix of youth - established young and experienced riders.

We perhaps seem at crossed wires but hopefully this clarifies any misunderstanding of what I was getting at.

Do you think a mixture of say five good riders with two talented Brits maybe not all Brit's?  could it work Steve.? Would the youngster say have two races against his opposite 6/7 and maybe against a number 2 and 4 not easy to organise i know but for me it is an exciting thought.Just think Poole as a example Holder,Holder,jnr),Kurtz,Woryna,Sundstrom,Jenkins,Brennan.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Sidney the robin