Men V Boys

[Paulco]

Was always the journeyman second strings who came into their own more when the rain had fell , maybe the stars didn't fancy it as much , but in recent years at Glasgow we had Sean Courtney and Lee Dicken , both revelled in those conditions .

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Although the bikes they ride today are not exactly versatile when the tracks are less than perfect and there is some rough tracks around I believe some riders need to have a good look at themselves , if someone were to propose a more stable easy to ride bike but they would have to sacrifice a couple of bhp to achieve it the riders were be in uproar , you can lead a horse to water etc etc

[steve roberts]

Jack would of rode with a broken neck WK if need be a tough old boy.WK did Jack marry a local girl in Paisley or somewhere in Scotland.???

I think he married someone called Cheryl...not sure where she was from however. Weird story but I read once that when they had split up and Cheryl had moved back to NZ the night that Jack was tragically killed on the A1 she thought she heard him call out her name.

Edited July 19, 2017 by steve roberts

[SCB]

Neil Collins, a proper master in the rain..

 

Never had the machinery to match the top riders but on a wet track where technique, bravery, natural talent and throttle control were the key determinants rather than horsepower he could be fantastic..

I'd always loved watching Neil anyway but getting to watch him every week in his couple of season at Newport was a joy.

[E I Addio]

Thereby lies one of the major problems with speedway. Bikes have been allowed to become more powerful, and some would argue, less easy to handle on tracks that have barely changed...albeit fences have improved with the removal of poles and air fencing installed.

 

I spoke to Peter Collins once and asked him what had changed most in the sport during his time and after and his answer was that the bikes had become too powerful on tracks that were no longer designed for such speeds.

 

Four valves were the start of the decline but lay down engines, link forks etc have taken it to another level and who knows what next development lays in store. The engine tuners must be laughing!

I was taking to Olle Nygren a couple of years ago and he was saying that when he was riding he reckoned to do about 100 meetings a year and usually fell off about once in a season, and also that Mauger, Briggs and the other top men were more or less the same. I must say that looking back I can't remember many falls by the top men of yesteryear. Olle was saying it's all due to the bikes and throttle control hardly comes into it anymore.

 

Can anybody remember people like Kilby, Ashby, Collins, Wilson, Betts, Simmo etc going down much ? I can't, At that was the era when GB was a real force in world Speedwáy. , In more modern times, I don't remember Lindgren crashing very much, but the rest seem to be off at least once a month.

[The White Knight]

I was taking to Olle Nygren a couple of years ago and he was saying that when he was riding he reckoned to do about 100 meetings a year and usually fell off about once in a season, and also that Mauger, Briggs and the other top men were more or less the same. I must say that looking back I can't remember many falls by the top men of yesteryear. Olle was saying it's all due to the bikes and throttle control hardly comes into it anymore.

 

Can anybody remember people like Kilby, Ashby, Collins, Wilson, Betts, Simmo etc going down much ? I can't, At that was the era when GB was a real force in world Speedwáy. , In more modern times, I don't remember Lindgren crashing very much, but the rest seem to be off at least once a month.

I would like to add Greg Hancock to the name of Freddie Lindgren. You do not hear of him falling much either.

 

My views on current Bikes are well known - they are too bloody dangerous.

[steve roberts]

I was taking to Olle Nygren a couple of years ago and he was saying that when he was riding he reckoned to do about 100 meetings a year and usually fell off about once in a season, and also that Mauger, Briggs and the other top men were more or less the same. I must say that looking back I can't remember many falls by the top men of yesteryear. Olle was saying it's all due to the bikes and throttle control hardly comes into it anymore.

 

Can anybody remember people like Kilby, Ashby, Collins, Wilson, Betts, Simmo etc going down much ? I can't, At that was the era when GB was a real force in world Speedwáy. , In more modern times, I don't remember Lindgren crashing very much, but the rest seem to be off at least once a month.

Yes I would agree. Saw all those riders numerous times and my particular favourite was Gordon Kennett who rarely fell off (unless 'provoked' by Steve Gresham!)

 

Dag Lovaas was as smooth as they came and remember him often weighing up the pits bend at Cowley when he would do a wide sweep riding the adverse camber that was notorious back then before passing an opponent.

 

More deft throttle control and track craft often required riders to suss out the best lines and I recall reading an article about Scott Autrey who would read a race and would anticipate his passing manoeuvre a lap before he would actually carry it out at the County Ground.

 

Often saw riders fake an outside move before sweeping underneath an opponent much to their surprise...bikes were more manageable back then (although the JAP was difficult apparently) and I remember Kelly Moran saying that he found it difficult managing a lay down when he gave it a try...and there was no more skillful rider on a bike than him arguably.

[FAST GATER]

I was taking to Olle Nygren a couple of years ago and he was saying that when he was riding he reckoned to do about 100 meetings a year and usually fell off about once in a season, and also that Mauger, Briggs and the other top men were more or less the same. I must say that looking back I can't remember many falls by the top men of yesteryear. Olle was saying it's all due to the bikes and throttle control hardly comes into it anymore.

 

Can anybody remember people like Kilby, Ashby, Collins, Wilson, Betts, Simmo etc going down much ? I can't, At that was the era when GB was a real force in world Speedwáy. , In more modern times, I don't remember Lindgren crashing very much, but the rest seem to be off at least once a month.

It was brought to my attention last year when Peter Karlsson fell off about three times in a month( which was his own fault) more than I have seen him off in most of his career ,IMO the vast majority of modern riders are all but passengers on bikes these days !

Edited July 21, 2017 by FAST GATER

[mikebv]

The ultra slick tracks of today mean riders keep the throttle on 'full' for the whole of the race...

 

Which means that when they hit some rare 'deep stuff' (or touch an opponents back wheel and straighten up) it can catapult them into 'orbit'....

 

Years ago the deeper tracks allowed for more passing through control of the throttle as it wasn't always the rider with the back wheel spinning the fastest that got the drive out of the track required to win..

 

Riders of today have, in the main, learned their craft on slick tracks hence they know no different which also means anything less than a 'perfect/smooth' track is a major challenge to a lot of them..

 

You only have to look at the 'blue groove National League' to see the situation of riders not being able to handle grip will continue as simply they are not opened up to these conditions...

 

Hence high impact crashes will continue to increase as today's 'rocket ships' suddenly take off leaving riders with almost zero time to react and evade impact..

[waiheke1]

Does anyone have any stats which would indicate that crashes are actually more common now than in the past.

If they are is it tied to the fact that there are less "meaningless" meetings than in the past?

Would also note that fatalities and career ending injuries seem far less common. In recent times I can think only of Rico and Ward of top riders.

Whereas in the 80s/90s you had the likes of Gundersen sigalos Jan o Joe Owen and per jonsson retire due to major injuries, while the likes of ermolenko and Knudsen returned from horrific injuries.

More injuries now but less major ones? Or less major due to medical advances?

One other point I would make is that riders seem to get criticism for not wanting to ride in wet conditions (when racing is often rubbish) but also for taking more risks due to airfences (which are the sort of moves which make for exviting racing). Perhaps riders have things the right way round?

[foamfence]

Does anyone have any stats which would indicate that crashes are actually more common now than in the past.

If they are is it tied to the fact that there are less "meaningless" meetings than in the past?

Would also note that fatalities and career ending injuries seem far less common. In recent times I can think only of Rico and Ward of top riders.

Whereas in the 80s/90s you had the likes of Gundersen sigalos Jan o Joe Owen and per jonsson retire due to major injuries, while the likes of ermolenko and Knudsen returned from horrific injuries.

More injuries now but less major ones? Or less major due to medical advances?

One other point I would make is that riders seem to get criticism for not wanting to ride in wet conditions (when racing is often rubbish) but also for taking more risks due to airfences (which are the sort of moves which make for exviting racing). Perhaps riders have things the right way round?

If it wasn't for better safety fences you would have many more serious injuries, you only had to see Leicester on Monday night. I think a rider sat on the saddle of a sliding bike and going full throttle, is less able to respond to a problem than a rider stood over the handlebars and usually not going full throttle.

[Sidney the robin]

Yes I would agree. Saw all those riders numerous times and my particular favourite was Gordon Kennett who rarely fell off (unless 'provoked' by Steve Gresham!)

 

Dag Lovaas was as smooth as they came and remember him often weighing up the pits bend at Cowley when he would do a wide sweep riding the adverse camber that was notorious back then before passing an opponent.

 

More deft throttle control and track craft often required riders to suss out the best lines and I recall reading an article about Scott Autrey who would read a race and would anticipate his passing manoeuvre a lap before he would actually carry it out at the County Ground.

 

Often saw riders fake an outside move before sweeping underneath an opponent much to their surprise...bikes were more manageable back then (although the JAP was difficult apparently) and I remember Kelly Moran saying that he found it difficult managing a lay down when he gave it a try...and there was no more skillful rider on a bike than him arguably.

Kennett cant remember him ever falling off ????Ashby cant remember him falling at the Abbey but Olsen brought him off once at Coventry and he also had a bad smash at Sheffield with Crumpy.Kilb was brought off once at the Abbey by Mauger Ivan had to be sneaked out of the Abbey in a back seat of a car.I do believe the bikes are to fast now when you see Doyle motoring nearly getting sucked into the second bend air fence you shut your eyes sometimes. Edited July 21, 2017 by Sidney the robin

[Fromafar]

The ultra slick tracks of today mean riders keep the throttle on 'full' for the whole of the race...

Which means that when they hit some rare 'deep stuff' (or touch an opponents back wheel and straighten up) it can catapult them into 'orbit'....

Years ago the deeper tracks allowed for more passing through control of the throttle as it wasn't always the rider with the back wheel spinning the fastest that got the drive out of the track required to win..

Riders of today have, in the main, learned their craft on slick tracks hence they know no different which also means anything less than a 'perfect/smooth' track is a major challenge to a lot of them..

You only have to look at the 'blue groove National League' to see the situation of riders not being able to handle grip will continue as simply they are not opened up to these conditions...

Hence high impact crashes will continue to increase as today's 'rocket ships' suddenly take off leaving riders with almost zero time to react and evade impact..

Excellent summary IMO .

If it wasn't for better safety fences you would have many more serious injuries, you only had to see Leicester on Monday night. I think a rider sat on the saddle of a sliding bike and going full throttle, is less able to respond to a problem than a rider stood over the handlebars and usually not going full throttle.

This modern style of right leg off the footrest and up in the air tells it all IMO ,as soon as the bike finds a bit of grip they are just a passenger .

[Vince]

Personally I think far more of the difference is down to rose tinted glasses than any real difference in riding ability and todays riders in my opinion are willing to ride closer to the edge rather than settle for points.

 

The style has changed with tracks and bikes but a modern bike on a slick track finds plenty of grip and riders who have throttle control are still the ones who win. It's just not as obvious as it used to be when they rolled right off, now it's more about very small adjustments. There's no lack of skill in comparison to the 60's when I started watching, if anything I would say that the average level is quite a lot higher.

 

It's still a really tough sport that is ridden by lads who know how to take a knock and carry on.

 

I used to work for Jimmy Squibb who rode from the 50's through to the 80's and in comparison to todays equivalent standard of rider he did very much better financially out of the sport. I'm sure most modern riders would welcome the opportunity to work as well but it's not so easy to work a job around Speedway these days.

 

Do agree about the right foot being off the footrest though, just seems stupid to me, then again I can't ride a bike fast enough to need to do it!!

[castrolargh]

Think picking rider's from years gone by you could say they were all men.

I think from the modern era (2010+) it's not very easy to pick a rider who would happily put themselves on the line regardless of conditions...

These guys are still nutters but compared with yesteryear these modern day riders are wee boys

poty Sanchez was always good in poor conditions

[Derwent]

Geoff "Leggy" Powell, now there was someone who would travel anywhere anytime for a ride whatever the conditions. Have bike will travel was Geoff's motto.

[ragdoll64]

poty Sanchez was always good in poor conditions

 

That's who immediately came to my mind too.............have seen him absolutely outstanding in the wet.

[The White Knight]

As I said earlier - Hans Andersen seemed to do OK in wet conditions.