Could The Uk League Run On A 4tt Basis

[Hawk127]

Given the general quality of racing at the 4TT particularly at International level and the overall lack of team racing as it use to be (riders generally racing for themselves now days) would this type of meeting work even if it was team A and Team B in a League match. The overall winners of the combined totals get three points second highest scorers get two and third get one with those finishing fourth getting no points. A format needs some thinking about but you could have alternate heats for A and B classed riders and a final for each. The combined results count towards league Points/placing. This would also give tracks the chance to mix it up in terms of meetings to subject to rider availability. The main criteria being that every team must complete the same number of A and B fixtures but in any order that suits clubs and rider availability. Just a thought but what he heck, the club / team racing as is unsustainable going forward so perhaps it is time to think outside that box. This is just a thought for discussion not a topic for vitriolic responses.

[Guest]

I am certain there have been league competitions run on a 4TT basis in some European countries over the years. Offhand, Italy and Hungary spring to mind but I would need to check further to confirm this. But Hawk127's suggestion is one that is worth further debate IMO.

[Humphrey Appleby]

It's a non-starter for a professional league because promotions only receive revenue from home meetings, and 4TTs would mean that only 25% of meetings would be at home instead of 50%.

 

Denmark did run their leagues on this basis in the past, but that was more a part-time competition, ran far fewer meetings, and their cost structure was and is different.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Humphrey Appleby

[The Third Man]

The problem would be that you would have to pay wages for three away meetings from the gate receipts of one home meeting, I know the wages would be less but I am not sure they would be enough to cover the costs

I am certain there have been league competitions run on a 4TT basis in some European countries over the years. Offhand, Italy and Hungary spring to mind but I would need to check further to confirm this. But Hawk127's suggestion is one that is worth further de

 

think W Germany did in the 70's, sure Les Glover used to ride over there

[Triple.H.]

It would kill off the already on its knees dying art of team riding.

As a more mature fan on the odd occasion I get to see team riding I really enjoy it

[Hawk127]

It's a non-starter for a professional league because promotions only receive revenue from home meetings, and 4TTs would mean that only 25% of meetings would be at home instead of 50%.

Denmark did run their leagues on this basis in the past, but that was more a part-time competition, ran far fewer meetings, and their cost structure was and is different.

I am sure that with some thought these problems could be overcome and if the structure was right every club would not lose but as is usual on here more negatives than positives. The sport is dire as it stands and needs shaking up. I suspect that some would have the same view in cricket and the 20/20 versus boring matches. Watch the sport eventually disappear with the view that 'its a non starter'. Why not Suggest something positive that will save this good motor sport from the state that it is currently in then regular criticise. Time to close the topic.

[Guest]

I am sure that with some thought these problems could be overcome and if the structure was right every club would not lose but as is usual on here more negatives than positives. The sport is dire as it stands and needs shaking up. I suspect that some would have the same view in cricket and the 20/20 versus boring matches. Watch the sport eventually disappear with the view that 'its a non starter'. Why not Suggest something positive that will save this good motor sport from the state that it is currently in then regular criticise. Time to close the topic.

 

​I fully appreciate your comments Hawk127 but feel it is a little early to close down the topic. The usual experts (!!!!) have not yet given their opinions. IMO more debate is needed in regard to Hawk127's OP.

[foamfence]

It would kill off the already on its knees dying art of team riding.

As a more mature fan on the odd occasion I get to see team riding I really enjoy it

I seem to remember a 4TT years ago where the riders actually rode in pairs, with just maybe a nominated final heat with one from each team.

[Gunner85]

Denmark and Germany have run leagues containing 4 teams in a league match .

 

Non starter for me.

[Guest]

I seem to remember a 4TT years ago where the riders actually rode in pairs, with just maybe a nominated final heat with one from each team.

 

​Yes, I recall something of that type of 4TT racing. No reason why heats should not be on a 'two pair' basis.

[Humphrey Appleby]

I am sure that with some thought these problems could be overcome and if the structure was right every club would not lose but as is usual on here more negatives than positives.

Well the negative is that 1 in 4 meetings rather than 1 in 2 will be revenue generating for each team, and that's a big inherent problem to overcome to start with. Plus you'll need to pay for at least 16 and possibly 20 riders (if you include reserves) at each meeting, rather than the 14 needed for matches now, so that's more travelling expenses. And if that's not enough, you can't make a decent heat formula in less than 16 heats, so that's at least one more heat to find points money for, before you even consider the reserves who'll otherwise be sitting around.

 

I won't even get into the difficulties of scheduling 4TT fixtures to ensure that every team gets the same number of home meetings and meets every other team in the league an equal number of times. Or the excessive repetition it causes if you're able to achieve this.

 

So sorry to be Mr Negative, but a 4TT structure isn't going to revolutionise the sport for all the reasons above. Might work for a short duration tournament that's primarily funded for television and sponsorship, but that isn't going to happen in the current climate.

 

Why not Suggest something positive that will save this good motor sport from the state that it is currently in then regular criticise.

I wasn't asked to suggest something positive - I was commenting on why a 4TT format isn't the answer. The problems with speedway are far deeper rooted than the format of the meetings, and it's now so utterly undercapitalised that it's probably doomed. However, my view which I've expressed many times on here is that it needs to be cheaper and offer better value in terms of the number and speed of running the heats, and teams need to be made-up of riders that turn-up every week.

 

Nevertheless, plenty disagree and believe the sport should bankrupt itself to attract back the mercenaries, organising meetings when it suits them rather than the spectators during the summer months. Plenty also think British-based riders should be off riding in mickey mouse competitions masquerading as continental championships in order that a handful of half-decent riders can be selected for other tournaments that also don't provide any financial benefits to anyone other private speculators.

 

Until these underlying issues are addressed, tinkering with the format is just moving the deckchairs on the Titanic.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Humphrey Appleby

[steve roberts]

Used to dislike the 4TT formula which relied on riders of other teams to help either increase your team's overall lead or close the gap depending on the scenario...but with the ever increasing threat of track closures in the recent past and/or present there may be only four teams contesting a particular league anyway!

 

However my particular dislike of the 3TT beats the aforementioned whereby your team didn't compete, if I recall, in a third of the meeting!

Edited July 11, 2017 by steve roberts

[waytogo28]

Without intending to be negative I can only agree with those exploring the difficulties of making it work on a 4TT basis.

I can only offer, as a possible saviour to the way the sport is becoming extinct ( in the form it is now ) the ideas that we so nearly adopted several years ago. This being that the riders all rider the same machines - probably something like the Honda experiment. They could even be 350 cc ( or 500 cc ) single cylinder machines of lower BHP. NO tuning, in fact sealed engines and limited other changes ( if possible none ) to standard machines. Closer racing with more passing with skill being the deciding factor. There are of course lots of negatives to be pointed out, I am sure.

[foamfence]

Without intending to be negative I can only agree with those exploring the difficulties of making it work on a 4TT basis.

I can only offer, as a possible saviour to the way the sport is becoming extinct ( in the form it is now ) the ideas that we so nearly adopted several years ago. This being that the riders all rider the same machines - probably something like the Honda experiment. They could even be 350 cc ( or 500 cc ) single cylinder machines of lower BHP. NO tuning, in fact sealed engines and limited other changes ( if possible none ) to standard machines. Closer racing with more passing with skill being the deciding factor. There are of course lots of negatives to be pointed out, I am sure.

Standard engines would certainly get my vote. A 4TT might be an alternative for a cup competition, cup matches that are the same format as league matches would probably add interest if they were changed to something different.

[steve roberts]

Standard engines would certainly get my vote. A 4TT might be an alternative for a cup competition, cup matches that are the same format as league matches would probably add interest if they were changed to something different.

Seem to recall that in 1979 (?) Cup matches were run over 16 or even 18 heats without the use of guests or the R/R facility?

Standard engines would certainly get my vote. A 4TT might be an alternative for a cup competition, cup matches that are the same format as league matches would probably add interest if they were changed to something different.

I actually rode a 250cc Honda bike at one of Olle Nygren's Training Schools in between riding the standard 2 valve JAWA 500cc.

[Guest]

Seem to recall that in 1979 (?) Cup matches were run over 16 or even 18 heats without the use of guests or the R/R facility?

 

 

In far happier times for speedway, competitions like the National Trophy (dominated over the seasons by Belle Vue) and London Cup (...which 'belonged' mainly to Wembley) were on a 18 heat format, with six team riders and two reserves who all had programmed rides. And nobody in those wonderful days had heard about guest riders and the r/r facility. Then teams were from REAL clubs (as in other sports) and were built and developed on a season-on-season basis.

[stevebrum]

Denmark and Germany have run leagues containing 4 teams in a league match .

Non starter for me.

Finland run a 4 team league and I think the Slovak's do as well?

Small leagues with not enough riders probably makes sense.

Don't think it's viable for our league tho.

[Humphrey Appleby]

A 4TT might be an alternative for a cup competition, cup matches that are the same format as league matches would probably add interest if they were changed to something different.

A 4TT format would be more suited to an Inter-League Cup - more chance of the lower league teams being competitive with small-side teams, plus multiple teams per meeting would maintain some interest if 1 or 2 of the teams were not competitive.

Finland run a 4 team league and I think the Slovak's do as well?

4TTs are more suited to club-based competitions where there's only a few teams, and where you want to reduce the volunteer effort needed to stage meetings.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Humphrey Appleby

[steve roberts]

A 4TT format would be more suited to an Inter-League Cup - more chance of the lower league teams being competitive with small-side teams, plus multiple teams per meeting would maintain some interest if 1 or 2 of the teams were not competitive.

 

4TTs are more suited to club-based competitions where there's only a few teams, and where you want to reduce the volunteer effort needed to stage meetings.

..again I recall this was the case in 1979/80 when a team from the lower league would take on three teams from the upper league. It didn't prove successful, if I recall, and Oxford riding in the National League in those days with a strong top four were generally hammered!

[Guest compost]

..again I recall this was the case in 1979/80 when a team from the lower league would take on three teams from the upper league. It didn't prove successful, if I recall, and Oxford riding in the National League in those days with a strong top four were generally hammered!

 

but wasn't the real issue here that NL participation in the IL4TT was based on the previous season's finishing places. It was usual for NL teams to loose strength after a successful season (even without a points limit) so the following year would see them in the inter-league competitions with a weaker team (same applied generally to the IL KO Cup).

 

In this era Newcastle were probably the most consistent NL side and even with the Owen brothers they struggled. Just showed the gap between the leagues.

In response to the OP, wasn't the reason given for doing away with the round robin 4tt qualifying matches the lack of spectator attendance and apathy towards such meetings ?

 

A league based on 3tt matches wouldn't work (imho) because if the point was to have fewer riders per team then 3tt events have 6 riders plus a reserve per side - so no saving.

 

Hard to see how a 4tt league based on pairs riding per heat (rather than the traditional glorified individual format) would work due to previous posts comments on costs plus the supposed fan apathy to such meetings. Sorry but seems that you need minimum of 6 per team to make it work.