Should A Non-brtish Rider Compete In National Championship

[The White Knight]

I can understand the unrest, caused by the possibility that Rory might have achieved the British GP wildcard

But as has been said, whilst it's not widespread, it has been happening for years, particularly riding on "foreign" licences

 

Regarding passports, that's another argument, and if dual-nationality passport holders do ride, then they can surely choose

Interesting that Philippe contacted Castagna, as I wondered what it had to do with the Italian

But then I browsed the FIM site, and they do list riders' licences for their events - so, if Rory rides on an ACU licence, then it would appear to be ok with the governing body

 

I recall Marvyn Cox riding on a foreign licence, more recently Rune Holta - did Andy Smith do likewise?

Interestingly - if Rory was as seems 100% eligible to ride in the British Final, how many of those bemoaning the quality of the field because Lambert was "absent" were also calling for the removal of a rider of Rory's class?!

 

In the scheme of things, as others have recorded, there are far more important things that need attending to with our wonderful sport, and it would be good to know just how much a person of Philippe's experience, knowledge and standing has emailed the BSPA, SCB, ACU, FIM, about getting some of these things put right

 

If this was your first complaining email, Philippe, let's see plenty more from you - you'll get a lot of backing from the BSF if you can lead a campaign to get some deaf ears turned back, heads dug out of the sand, and some wrongs put to right

 

You may need to become divorced from any involvement in Ole Olsen's Flying Circus - which has devastated UK speedway - and concentrate purely on the domestic scene

Love and agree with that.

 

Freiherr Manfred von Richthofen would have had a smile at that too.

 

http://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/manfred-baron-von-richthofen

[False dawn]

Perhaps a way around this problem is for riders to make a long term commitment. So if you ride in a "National event" for one country, you are barred from riding for another for say. five years. This should be in addition to the current British requirement of passport holding and residence etc. You could even make such riders make themselves available for the National team in the SWC and so on. Whoops, sorry Scott.

[Humphrey Appleby]

The usual arch complainers like iris and HA would be the first complain if Schlein had won the British title/wildcard but when an investigative journalist does it before them they then criticise it as 'should have better things to do'.

Philippe an investigative journalist? ROFL

How typical... Phil and the Speedway Star are routinely criticised for not challenging the sports elite, and when they do people still whinge. Just because it happens in other countries does not mean we should roll over and let it happen here.

Then why complain to the FIM? They have nothing to do with who can or can't ride in a domestic meeting, regardless of the label on it.

 

It's the ACU/SCB/BSPA who are responsible for creating and recognising national championships in their jurisdictions, and presumably the eligibility for them.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Humphrey Appleby

[iris123]

 

Quite agree. The usual arch complainers like iris and HA would be the first complain if Schlein had won the British title/wildcard but when an investigative journalist does it before them they then criticise it as 'should have better things to do'. Same could be said of them then. Some folks only exist to moan to satisfy their own egos.

Completely wrong as ever.I have explained what i was repying to Phil about.Not surprised you can't grasp that though.But if the FIM ban this for the British Final they would also ban foreign riders then competing in German championships etc.The likes of Robert Lambert gained good experience riding in german Championships and others such as Dutch riders also gain experience because their home championships are relatively poor.The Dutch run theirs as an 'open' championship so that foreigners can boost the line-up......

 

Just have to put the name Jason Bunyan on here and ask did Phil or the Star send an e-mail to the FIM when the NZ national champion from the UK was announced as the wiildcard for the NZ GP?Bet i know the answer to that one

Edited June 23, 2017 by iris123

[RobMcCaffery]

Have a look at british final results from 1961-1972 , Mauger Briggs Moore and Valentine.

That was covered in Philip's original posting. Perhaps it might be worth your while reading it?

 

In case that's too much to ask, prior to 1973 neither the Australian or New Zealand motorcycling authorities were directly represented on the F.I.M. Their riders were thus treated as 'British' and they rode in the British Qualifying rounds of the World Championship right through to the British Final then on to the international rounds.

 

In the same way the Great Britain World Team Cup squad was open to Aussies and Kiwis and until 1973 the actual British riders were normally in the minority.

 

In the 1973 World Team Cup final only English riders were selected. In response Australia and New Zealand demanded, and got direct representation at the F.I.M., their own World Championship rounds and World Team Cup teams.

 

As Philip wrote, it was rather different back then.

 

Using your 'logic' our SWC team would include Jason Doyle and a selection from Chris Holder, Max Fricke, Nick Morris and other successful Aussies.

 

What's also mentioned by others is how British riders have raced in Aussie Championship rounds. That's more a sign of desperation by the Aussie promoters to have fields that the public would pay to watch than anything else. It was wrong.

 

We don't need our fields 'bulking-out' like that.

 

In most sports once you represent one nationality it is not easy to just represent another, usually based on long-term permanency of residence and the holding of a passport. Speedway should be the same.

 

In some ways I wonder if a win for Schlein might have done some good for exposing the whole shoddy, ill-thought out system.

[PHILIPRISING]

WHY have you latched onto Humphrey's rather childish habit of calling me Phillippe? Can you not think of something yourself? I use my own name on here for obvious reasons but do not need your pathetic variation. Or should I call you Northern Blue?

 

For your information I have had no involvement with Ole Olsen's Flying Circus as you prefer to call it - what's wrong with World Championship? - for at least two years now.

 

I did not send an email to Armando from Speedway Star. I contribute here as a speedway fan, which is something that Humphrey continually fails to grasp. I have known Armando for many, many years and still enjoy a personal as well as professional relationship with him.

 

Rory's class has nothing to do with it. He shouldn't have been there.

 

Cannot fathom why Humphrey cannot work out how you define a national Championship. And just because the BF is a declining spectacle, which it is, doesn't mean you open the doors to riders of a different nationality.

 

I could go on and on but for an old-timer like me it's getting near my bedtime.

 

 

Just have to put the name Jason Bunyan on here and ask did Phil or the Star send an e-mail to the FIM when the NZ national champion from the UK was announced as the wiildcard for the NZ GP?Bet i know the answer to that one

YES, made representations to both the FIM and BSI but Bill Buckley was insistent.

Edited June 23, 2017 by PHILIPRISING

[Midland Red]

I may be wrong (I often am) but in days gone by - before Ole Olsen's Flying Circus - the British Championship was a bona fide qualifying round of the World Championship, so I suppose in some way it was then under (part) jurisdiction of the FIM

 

Nowadays, it is a stand alone championship - the fact that BSPA decide that the winner shall be the wildcard for the British GP is immaterial as far as FIM are concerned

 

Perhaps Philippe was still thinking the British Championship was part of the FIM World Championship - it clearly isn't anymore

[PHILIPRISING]

Philippe an investigative journalist? ROFL

Then why complain to the FIM? They have nothing to do with who can or can't ride in a domestic meeting, regardless of the label on it.

 

It's the ACU/SCB/BSPA who are responsible for creating and recognising national championships in their jurisdictions, and presumably the eligibility for them.

I HAVE never suggested that I was an investigative journalist even when I was working full-time which I certainly am not anymore. My number one priority now is to try and ensure that Speedway Star, owned by Pinegen Limited, a company of which I am the majority shareholder, survives the current British speedway recession.

 

If the FIM wished that could establish the guidelines for participation in domestic championships through a licensing process.

 

Kelvin Tatum was telling me this week about when he stood in the rostrum at a World Longtrack Championship Final alongside Simon Wigg, who had won racing on a Dutch licence. The Dutch national anthem was played and Simon was so embarrassed that he immediately surrendered the Dutch licence and became "British" again.

I may be wrong (I often am) but in days gone by - before Ole Olsen's Flying Circus - the British Championship was a bona fide qualifying round of the World Championship, so I suppose in some way it was then under (part) jurisdiction of the FIM

 

Nowadays, it is a stand alone championship - the fact that BSPA decide that the winner shall be the wildcard for the British GP is immaterial as far as FIM are concerned

 

Perhaps Philippe was still thinking the British Championship was part of the FIM World Championship - it clearly isn't anymore

BUT it could be ... the top four riders could be nominated for the qualifying rounds of the World Championship.

[iris123]

So,you were against Bunyan being named wild card for the NZ GP Phil?

I missed tha,but maybe it was in a SS that i didn't read

[Humphrey Appleby]

Cannot fathom why Humphrey cannot work out how you define a national Championship.

If a national federation says a particular meeting or series of meetings is a national championship, then obviously that's what it is and they can define who's eligible to compete.

 

If however said national federation decided it needed foreign riders to make up the numbers or provide a draw card in a weak field, how on earth can the FIM intervene? If the FIM tells the federation they can't use certain riders, then said national federation can just reclassify the meeting or call it something else, but still achieve the same outcome. It's not that a national championship is a requirement for qualifying riders to FIM competitions. [And incidentally I had a similar sort of issue with the MSA and used a similar workaround.]

 

I'm actually not disagreeing with the premise that a national championship should be for local riders, but I'm also sympathetic to the fact some countries don't have enough (good) riders for one, and the situation is now much more complex with more dual nationalities and more competitor mobility than in the past. And the British Championship has also been run into the ground over the past 25 years, and neither the BSPA nor many riders seem much interested in it these days.

[PHILIPRISING]

So,you were against Bunyan being named wild card for the NZ GP Phil?

I missed tha,but maybe it was in a SS that i didn't read

WHY would it have to be in Speedway Star? And at the end of the day, as I haver said ad infinitum, my view is not worth more than anyone else, on here or elsewhere.

 

I spoke at length to BSI and the FIM, and indeed Buckley, about the New Zealand wild card situation but, let's face it, their options were very limited. Bunyan was very popular in NZ, especially Auckland, and did a great PR job which is why Buckley wanted him and there was nothing in the rules to prevent it. But it left a sour taste in my mouth but that didn't count and nor should it.

[iris123]

WHY would it have to be in Speedway Star? And at the end of the day, as I haver said ad infinitum, my view is not worth more than anyone else, on here or elsewhere.

 

I spoke at length to BSI and the FIM, and indeed Buckley, about the New Zealand wild card situation but, let's face it, their options were very limited. Bunyan was very popular in NZ, especially Auckland, and did a great PR job which is why Buckley wanted him and there was nothing in the rules to prevent it. But it left a sour taste in my mouth but that didn't count and nor should it.

So you agree.Promoters are in this to make money if possible.A popular foreign rider might well help boost the crowd and also provide good opposition to local riders.That is why the FIM aren't the people to go to and try to bring in a ban,which might help the British Final,but provide problems for numerous other nations.This is our problem and we should deal with it.Not try and make things all complex and infringe on other countries business.After all,you said you aren't interested in what other countries do.Leave them out of it

Edited June 23, 2017 by iris123

[Humphrey Appleby]

I Kelvin Tatum was telling me this week about when he stood in the rostrum at a World Longtrack Championship Final alongside Simon Wigg, who had won racing on a Dutch licence. The Dutch national anthem was played and Simon was so embarrassed that he immediately surrendered the Dutch licence and became "British" again.

It's a nice story, but even cursory investigation of the facts would reveal it's total cobblers. The meeting you're referring to must have been in 1995, but Wiggy was certainly still riding on a Dutch licence around 1997 and 1998 time. I know because one of conditions of being granted the licence was to ride in two Dutch meetings per year (according to my Dutch friend whose parents organised the speedway and grasstrack meetings at the time), and I remember him riding in meetings I was actually present at when I was living there.

 

DutchGrasstrack might even remember the Dutch meetings he rode in. [i'm also remembering your mate Armando rode in the Dutch Championship on a Dutch licence around the same time too.]

 

Wiggy if I recall, took out a Dutch license over a disagreement about having to ride in the British Grasstrack Masters in order to obtain an international licence from the ACU. I seem to remember he claimed it was a restrictive and illegal practice, and was eventually proved correct. Given that he must have retired around 1999 time, I'd be interested to know if he ever actually rode on a British licence again.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Humphrey Appleby

[tigerowl]

An Aussie riding in the British final making the sport seem silly?

 

Let's hope Sheffield don't win the Championship and Leicester finish bottom of the Premiership.

 

Guests for Lasse Bjerre and Josh Bates because they are riding for the opposition? Explain that to the press and the would be fans.

[ruffdiamond]

An Aussie riding in the British final making the sport seem silly?

 

Let's hope Sheffield don't win the Championship and Leicester finish bottom of the Premiership.

 

Guests for Lasse Bjerre and Josh Bates because they are riding for the opposition? Explain that to the press and the would be fans.

just let them ride and, share the points they score between the two teams,,, shouldn't be too hard to work out

[britmet]

(After p.1 I've skipped a few posts, so apols if already stated, but...)

Other countries do have non-nationals compete in their championships, - they're Open Championships. Thus far the British Chmpshp isn't.

. ..and agreed, its not an FIM matter but an ACU/BSPA matter, . . at which point I shall give up in despair.

[The White Knight]

(After p.1 I've skipped a few posts, so apols if already stated, but...)

 

Other countries do have non-nationals compete in their championships, - they're Open Championships. Thus far the British Chmpshp isn't.

 

. ..and agreed, its not an FIM matter but an ACU/BSPA matter, . . at which point I shall give up in despair.

A lot of people already have given up in despair. :sad:

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

I'm totally with Phillip rising on this one ,Rory is an Aussie , he has raced for them at World Cup level and should not of been in the British final , I said it 2 weeks ago on here that on principle I would not attend Cardiff this year if he were to get the wildcard

[cyclone]

That was covered in Philip's original posting. Perhaps it might be worth your while reading it?

 

In case that's too much to ask, prior to 1973 neither the Australian or New Zealand motorcycling authorities were directly represented on the F.I.M. Their riders were thus treated as 'British' and they rode in the British Qualifying rounds of the World Championship right through to the British Final then on to the international rounds.

 

In the same way the Great Britain World Team Cup squad was open to Aussies and Kiwis and until 1973 the actual British riders were normally in the minority.

 

In the 1973 World Team Cup final only English riders were selected. In response Australia and New Zealand demanded, and got direct representation at the F.I.M., their own World Championship rounds and World Team Cup teams.

 

As Philip wrote, it was rather different back then.

 

Using your 'logic' our SWC team would include Jason Doyle and a selection from Chris Holder, Max Fricke, Nick Morris and other successful Aussies.

 

What's also mentioned by others is how British riders have raced in Aussie Championship rounds. That's more a sign of desperation by the Aussie promoters to have fields that the public would pay to watch than anything else. It was wrong.

 

We don't need our fields 'bulking-out' like that.

 

In most sports once you represent one nationality it is not easy to just represent another, usually based on long-term permanency of residence and the holding of a passport. Speedway should be the same.

 

In some ways I wonder if a win for Schlein might have done some good for exposing the whole shoddy, ill-thought out system.

 

Could you provide examples of how other sports quantify long-term permanency and also inform us as to how long Schlein has been permanently resident in the UK?

[Grachan]

That was covered in Philip's original posting. Perhaps it might be worth your while reading it?

 

In case that's too much to ask, prior to 1973 neither the Australian or New Zealand motorcycling authorities were directly represented on the F.I.M. Their riders were thus treated as 'British' and they rode in the British Qualifying rounds of the World Championship right through to the British Final then on to the international rounds.

 

In the same way the Great Britain World Team Cup squad was open to Aussies and Kiwis and until 1973 the actual British riders were normally in the minority.

 

In the 1973 World Team Cup final only English riders were selected. In response Australia and New Zealand demanded, and got direct representation at the F.I.M., their own World Championship rounds and World Team Cup teams.

 

As Philip wrote, it was rather different back then.

 

Using your 'logic' our SWC team would include Jason Doyle and a selection from Chris Holder, Max Fricke, Nick Morris and other successful Aussies.

 

What's also mentioned by others is how British riders have raced in Aussie Championship rounds. That's more a sign of desperation by the Aussie promoters to have fields that the public would pay to watch than anything else. It was wrong.

 

We don't need our fields 'bulking-out' like that.

 

In most sports once you represent one nationality it is not easy to just represent another, usually based on long-term permanency of residence and the holding of a passport. Speedway should be the same.

 

In some ways I wonder if a win for Schlein might have done some good for exposing the whole shoddy, ill-thought out system.

So you agree that there's no problem Rory Schlein riding in the British Championship if he has residency and a British passport?

 

Is there not one person out there who can just tell everyone, once and for all, if Rory has a British passport and Tai Woffinden has an Aussie one? It can't be that hard for a journalist in the sport to find out.