Greatest 5 Americans Ever

[Guest]

seems plain weird to put such credence on a fan-cum-reporter with little experience or knowledge of the sport outside of a few tracks on the west coast of the US. But hey, there's nowt funnier than folk.

 

 

I tend to disagree with your opinion of Scott Daloisio. He is a leading west coast photographer and has been for many years. He is also a respected west coast journalist and specialises in speedway and other motor sports. The article under debate was published in a leading west coast publication 'Dirt Bike' which covers all forms of motor cycle sport.

The article in regard to the 10 riders needs to be accepted in the context that it is based upon speedway happenings on the USA's west coast (which covers an area far larger than Britain) and only relates to speedway performances in that part of the USA. It does not relate rider performances in regard to their activities away from the west coast i.e in Europe. The majority of American readers have little or know interest on how their riders perform in Europeam speedway.

Like it or lump it but to American fans Mike Bast is a speedway legend albeit based on his performances in his homeland. In the USA Bast had the beatingof all the American riders who came to race in Britain.

Bast had no interest in riding regularly in Europe - big USA track earnings, a business and family, and comfortable lifestyle kept him in California. But these facts should not diminish his reputation as a top class speedway rider.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Guest

[The White Knight]

 

I tend to disagree with your opinion of Scott Daloisio. He is a leading west coast photographer and has been for many years. He is also a respected west coast journalist and specialises in speedway and other motor sports. The article under debate was published in a leading west coast publication 'Dirt Bike' which covers all forms of motor cycle sport.

The article in regard to the 10 riders needs to be accepted in the context that it is based upon speedway happenings on the USA's west coast (which covers an area far larger than Britain) and only relates to speedway performances in that part of the USA. It does not relate rider performances in regard to their activities away from the west coast i.e in Europe. The majority of American readers have little or know interest on how their riders perform in Europeam speedway.

Like it or lump it but to American fans Mike Bast is a speedway legend albeit based on his performances in his homeland. In the USA Bast had the beatingof all the American riders who came to race in Britain.

Bast had no interest in riding regularly in Europe - big USA track earnings, a business and family, and comfortable lifestyle kept him in California. But these facts should not diminish his reputation as a top class speedway rider.

But he did come over here to try to match the achievements of Autrey and the other Americans, he couldn't do it and went back to the USA with his tail between his legs, as I remember.

 

That is why I say that he was a good Rider in his own back yard and conditions. The other Americans proved themselves on the Speedway Tracks of the whole World - not just a little corner of it.

 

I think the Reporter/Photographer Scott Daloisio either hasn't watched Speedway at that time in Europe or, he is ignorant of just how very good Autrey and those other Americans over here were. Whichever way you look at it, as far as I am concerned, he is quite simply wrong.

[Guest]

But he did come over here to try to match the achievements of Autrey and the other Americans, he couldn't do it and went back to the USA with his tail between his legs, as I remember.

 

That is why I say that he was a good Rider in his own back yard and conditions. The other Americans proved themselves on the Speedway Tracks of the whole World - not just a little corner of it.

 

I think the Reporter/Photographer Scott Daloisio either hasn't watched Speedway at that time in Europe or, he is ignorant of just how very good Autrey and those other Americans over here were. Whichever way you look at it, as far as I am concerned, he is quite simply wrong.

Are you sure Mike Bast actually tried to get a place in a British team? I don't recall that. You are not getting him confused with his brother Steve who came to join Wembley at the start of the 1970s and, as I recall, returned home after just two matches?

So far as Scott Daloisio is concerned - I don't think he has ever watched speedway in Europe. As has been made clear previously his assessment of the riders as mentions in his article is based on their showings ONLY IN USA speedway.

A look at the UK exploits of STEVE Bast:

http://www.speedwayatoz.co.uk/pdfs/bast%20steve.pdf

Edited June 26, 2017 by Guest

[Grachan]

I actually dont take this blokes opinion to seriously to be honest i listen to the likes of Briggs/Mauger and they both rated Bast so that was good anough for me.Also most of us on here respect Bast i certainly do and from interviews seems like a really nice bloke.But to put Bast in front of Autrey and Sigalos for me is a big slur on those two those two did it against world class riders Bast did not.Also i find the Muller/Bast comparison amazing Muller was World Class most of us on my bus who went to Norden in 83 had him favourite we all wanted him in the sweep stake.Bast say for example if he had qualfied for the Coliseum in 1982 and this is my own opinion only even with a month's practice on that track he still would not of been good anough to be World Champion i am convinced of that.The reasons for that is he had not got the experience for one and had not learned the ropes and paid his dues.

Spot on post Sidney. Echoes my opinion completely. Even regarding the sweepstake on the bus in 1983!

 

To look at how god Bast was you only need to look at when he rode at White City in the Inter Continental Final. He and Penhall were out of their depth.

 

Penhall did something about it. Bast didn't and would have remained at that level.

[Guest]

Spot on post Sidney. Echoes my opinion completely. Even regarding the sweepstake on the bus in 1983!

 

To look at how god Bast was you only need to look at when he rode at White City in the Inter Continental Final. He and Penhall were out of their depth.

 

Penhall did something about it. Bast didn't and would have remained at that level.

 

Be that as it may, Mike Bast did not impress in that World Championship qualifier at the White City. But also remember that he did not follow the same path as Bruce Penhall because HE WAS NOT INTERESTED in riding in Europe. He was earning far more by racing in the USA, had a business and very importantly a family consider. And obviously a California life style has great attractions.

Speedway-wise on USA tracks he was able to match the best visitors from the rest of the world - a fact both Barry Briggs and Ivan Mauger have testified to elsewhere over the years.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Guest

[Sidney the robin]

Be that as it may, Mike Bast did not impress in that World Championship qualifier at the White City. But also remember that he did not follow the same path as Bruce Penal because HE WAS NOT INTERESTED in riding in Europe. He was earning far more by racing in the USA, had a business and very importantly a family consider. And obviously a California life style has great attractions.

Speedway-wise on USA tracks he was able to match the best visitors from the rest of the world - a fact both Barry Briggs and Ivan Mauger have testified to elsewhere over the years.

Most of those meetings though in reality Mauger,Briggo,PC (ect) for them it was a kind of working mans holiday of course they tried but it was not that important.What i would like to know is how many times did Bast actually enter the World Championship we know 1977.I know he entered other years and i think he relinquished his place once or twice.I am sure he had a few laps at Wimbledon one year and i beieved he was going to sign for them but it did not materialise.In 1977 before White City i know he was angry as he was promised laps after meetings but it did not happen so i will give him the benefit of the doubt there regarding White City. Edited June 26, 2017 by Sidney the robin

[Grachan]

 

Be that as it may, Mike Bast did not impress in that World Championship qualifier at the White City. But also remember that he did not follow the same path as Bruce Penal because HE WAS NOT INTERESTED in riding in Europe. He was earning far more by racing in the USA, had a business and very importantly a family consider. And obviously a California life style has great attractions.

Speedway-wise on USA tracks he was able to match the best visitors from the rest of the world - a fact both Barry Briggs and Ivan Mauger have testified to elsewhere over the years.

 

And good luck to him. But, to me, that sums up exactly why he never reached the same level as riders like Penhall, Sigalos and Autrey. Had he possessed the will to come here and take his career more seriously then, maybe, he could have been one of the World's best, but without doing that he never was.

 

Other riders, such as Jeff Sexton, were also a match for European riders on the USA tracks, but there's a big difference between popping out and beating Ivan Mauger in a one-off meeting and becoming a genuine World Championship contender.

[Sidney the robin]

In the Bast years i would say S.Bast Sexton ,R.Woods,Christian, were the best local americans. Woods did have a stint at Newport was settling in nicely then went home after a dispute but all those last named three could of done well in England i believe.

[Guest]

Most of those meetings though in reality Mauger,Briggo,PC (ect) for them it was a kind of working mans holiday of course they tried but it was not that important.What i would like to know is how many times did Bast actually enter the World Championship we know 1977.I know he entered other years and i think he relinquished his place once or twice.I am sure he had a few laps at Wimbledon one year and i beieved he was going to sign for them but it did not materialise.In 1977 before White City i know he was angry as he was promised laps after meetings but it did not happen so i will give him the benefit of the doubt there regarding White City.

 

He did indeed have a few laps at Wimbledon - but it was not a special visit to the UK for a trial wth the Dons. Those laps I am certain were done in the year he had the world championship qualifier at White City. As I recall Bast was just trying out a bike at Plough Lane - no more than that.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Guest

[iris123]

Fact is as you say this Scott the photographer didn't watch European speedway as you say.he concentrated on California.So might not have even seen American on the other side of his own country let alone the other side of the pond.So not really in a position to place Bast anywhere against the European at the time,because it was in Europe where the world championship was raced.

 

As for Bast,like others have said,he lacked the ambition to race on the tracks where you needed to prove yourself,in the competitions you needed to ride in,so will never be considered one of the worlds best,by anyone 'respected'.Bast might come up in threads about the most talented or the riders who could have achieved more etc.But Californian or US National titles in his own back yard mean very little on the world stage

[Guest]

Fact is as you say this Scott the photographer didn't watch European speedway as you say.he concentrated on California.So might not have even seen American on the other side of his own country let alone the other side of the pond.So not really in a position to place Bast anywhere against the European at the time,because it was in Europe where the world championship was raced.

 

As for Bast,like others have said,he lacked the ambition to race on the tracks where you needed to prove yourself,in the competitions you needed to ride in,so will never be considered one of the worlds best,by anyone 'respected'.Bast might come up in threads about the most talented or the riders who could have achieved more etc.But Californian or US National titles in his own back yard mean very little on the world stage

I think a factor in Bast's reluctance to ride in Europe was also that financially he was better off riding in California than in Europe. I have never been able to find actual claims from Mike Bast that he RATED HIMSELF among the world's best riders and the editorial item under debate does not either.

​All it does on a bottom line is match Bast in comparison to other American riders as seen from speedway action in the USA. The comment about him as a potential world champion was that of the article's author not the rider himself.

California has always been where the best American riders compete. The other speedway areas named feature riders who in many case have proven to be at best only West Coast Division Two standard and generally Division Three standard.

 

​

[fatface]

I think you have to understand the vantage point to understand this fan-cum-reporter's high ranking of Mike Bast.

 

He's a passionate fan of the Californian Speedway scene and if he were to rank all those Yanks that actually did have the ambition to come to Europe and succeed above Bast, that would be a tacit admission of the inferiority of American Speedway. Admitting Mike Bast is way below the likes of Penhall, Ermolenko, Autrey, Sigalos would effectively admit that American speedway is way below the standard in Europe. He's a fan! A biased fan who hasn't properly taken into account the bigger picture! He wouldn't be the first American either...but I digress.

 

I'm (fairly) sure Mike Bast might have been a success in Europe, given the success of his peers. But he didn't have the motivation or hunger to prove it. That's what separates the real champions from the talented. As it is, all we really have to go on in international terms is a really poor performance at White City which puts his World Championship record on a par with Rob Pfetzing at best.

[Sidney the robin]

Autrey came over in 73 and he didn't have a pot to p... in but that hunger and desire was there the same as Dewayne Keeter.At that time the BL was a tough baptism of fire for any newcomer really hard different tracks and conditions and it was a team sport as well.I do actually think Bast would of done well here the talent was there i think he had good equipment but we shall never know now.

[iris123]

Ivan Mauger is the ultimate example.Came over and it didn't work out for him.He could have just gone back and made a living in NZ and been a small footnote in history.But he had the determination and desire to work,work work.Drove a few times around Australia to get things right and came back to have another try.And became one of the best ever,if not the best ever.Moved the sport to another level with his professionalism,whereas Bast remains a 'what might have been'

[chunky]

 

He did indeed have a few laps at Wimbledon - but it was not a special visit to the UK for a trial wth the Dons. Those laps I am certain were done in the year he had the world championship qualifier at White City. As I recall Bast was just trying out a bike at Plough Lane - no more than that.

I was at Plough Lane that night. It was the week before the Inter-Continental Final, and despite some crazy rumours, Bast and Penhall simply had a few laps in preparation for White City. Of course, a spin round Wimbledon was no real help preparing for a track like White City...

 

Now, regarding Mike Bast's potential on European tracks, it is all conjecture. On that appearance at Wood Lane, Penhall wasn't much better than Bast, and look what happened to him! There have been MANY riders who started their career - or European career - very poorly, but went on to become very successful, and as iris says, Mauger is the prime example.

 

I don't doubt Bast's overall ability, and I don't doubt his dedication - to the American scene. I think he had the potential to become world-class, but not the desire; for him, it was all about the money. I think the same could be said for his brother Steve.

 

The other American who I think COULD have made a name for himself in Europe (and mentioned earlier by Sidney) was Jeff Sexton.

 

Steve

Edited June 26, 2017 by chunky

[Guest]

Ivan Mauger is the ultimate example.Came over and it didn't work out for him.He could have just gone back and made a living in NZ and been a small footnote in history.But he had the determination and desire to work,work work.Drove a few times around Australia to get things right and came back to have another try.And became one of the best ever,if not the best ever.Moved the sport to another level with his professionalism,whereas Bast remains a 'what might have been'

 

​You continually fail to grasp these facts: Mike Bast was not really invested in racing away from his American base. He was on high speedway earnings there, he had a major business, a wife and family. And lived in California, one of the nicest place possible. Why would he want to forgo all that for the British climate and the way that speedway is run in this country?

[iris123]

 

​You continually fail to grasp these facts: Mike Bast was not really invested in racing away from his American base. He was on high speedway earnings there, he had a major business, a wife and family. And lived in California, one of the nicest place possible. Why would he want to forgo all that for the British climate and the way that speedway is run in this country?

I do graps the fact.The fact is he didn't have what it takes/took to be one of the best,so your mate Scott is way off the mark.I don't care if he made a lot of money in California.Who cares?That isn't what this thread is about.He just didn't have what it takes to be considered one of the top 5 Americans ever.So just try and grasp that fact

[The White Knight]

 

​You continually fail to grasp these facts: Mike Bast was not really invested in racing away from his American base. He was on high speedway earnings there, he had a major business, a wife and family. And lived in California, one of the nicest place possible. Why would he want to forgo all that for the British climate and the way that speedway is run in this country?

Others did.

[lucifer sam]

 

​You continually fail to grasp these facts: Mike Bast was not really invested in racing away from his American base. He was on high speedway earnings there, he had a major business, a wife and family. And lived in California, one of the nicest place possible. Why would he want to forgo all that for the British climate and the way that speedway is run in this country?

 

Bruce Penhall was a very wealthy man, after the tragic death of his parents. But it didn't stop him coming over to ride for Cradley Heath to make it to the very top. Penhall had a level of determination that Bast lacked.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited June 26, 2017 by lucifer sam

[chunky]

 

Bruce Penhall was a very wealthy man, after the tragic death of his parents. But it didn't stop him coming over to ride for Cradley Heath to make it to the very top. Penhall had a level of determination that Bast lacked.

 

All the best

Rob

Exactly. People don't always get it; while there have been MANY superb up-and-comers in sport over the years, it is the attitude, determination, and dedication - rather than simple ability and talent - that makes one successful. Yes, Bast was "good", but he never did anything to show us that he had the desire (or the capability) to become a world-beater.

 

If we are going to judge him by his performances on his home track(s), then 15-year old Martin Dugard's feats on the Eastbourne training track would put him up there alongside Rickardsson, Mauger, and Fundin! Hell, Andy Campbell was a world-beater on a 100-yard concrete track!

 

Steve