Sidney the robin Posted June 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) Really hard to beat around tilehurst, virtually unstoppable!I really felt he could of won in 75 but the Russian Trofimov pushed him into third place in his first ride and that scuppered his chances.I think his temperment was superb a great style and the Reading side with Michanek,Lovass Curtis in it was some team. Edited June 18, 2017 by Sidney the robin 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 Personally, I feel that four basically pick themselves; Rickardsson, Fundin, Knutson, and Michanek. Okay, not everyone will agree there, but... There are many contenders for the fifth spot, but let's compare some stats for the major ones. As moved as I loved Tommy Jansson, I honestly couldn't put him in the list here, and the same applies to Christer Lofqvist, Torbjorn Harrysson, Per-Olof Soderman, and Jimmy Nilsen. Bengt Jansson World Finals - 5 / 54 points (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th) Swedish Championships - 0 (2nd x2, 3rd x1) Soren Sjosten World Finals - 6 / 56 points (3rd x2, 4th, 7th. 8th, 9th) Swedish Championships - 0 (2nd x1, 3rd x1) Olle Nygren World Finals - 5 / 54 points (3rd, 4th x2, 7th, 8th) Swedish Championships - 1 (2nd x2, 3rd x1) Gote Nordin World Finals - 4 / 40 points (3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th) Swedish Championships - 2 (2nd x3) Rune Sormander World Finals 7 / 45 points (5th, 8th, 11th x3, 12th, 13th) Swedish Championships - 3 (2nd x1, 3rd x2) Per Jonsson World Finals 6 / 58 points (1987 pts halved) (1st, 2nd, 5th x2, 9th x2) Swedish Championships - 4 (2nd x1, 3 x3) Jan Andersson World Finals - 6 / 43 points (4th, 8th x2, 10th x2, 14th) Swedish Championships - 4 (2nd x3, 3rd x2) Bernt Persson World Finals - 7 / 40 points (2nd, 6th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 16th x2) Swedish Championships - 1 (2nd x2, 3rd x3) Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 As mentioned i think Henka matches at least a few of those Individual world finals 4 6th,5th,4th,7th and then 8 GP series with an 8th,5th,5th and then a fall off with nothing better than 14th after that.But a 2nd in the world U21 championship as well as a 4th and a 2 time Swedish champ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 As mentioned i think Henka matches at least a few of those Individual world finals 4 6th,5th,4th,7th and then 8 GP series with an 8th,5th,5th and then a fall off with nothing better than 14th after that.But a 2nd in the world U21 championship as well as a 4th and a 2 time Swedish champ I was just providing a quick list for people to compare and I did actually intend to include him! Henka could be a fabulous rider sometimes, but he definitely SHOULD have done better. Still a world-class rider, I do think he was one of the great under-achievers... As far as the others I listed, personally I wouldn't have included a couple of them on a short-list for the fifth spot, but I did so because others had mentioned them - or were likely to mention them. I did wonder about including the World Junior/U21, but when you look at the history of that event - and then what they actually made of themselves - it doesn't make good reading! That certainly applies to the runners-up, particularly in the early years; Owen, Jolly, Faizulin, Briggs, Courtney, Bargh etc; all capable riders, but not a World Final appearance between them! Of course, it was Henka's fellow Swede Peter Nahlin who pipped him to the title, but while he had a decent career himself, it wasn't really what he had promised... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 I was just providing a quick list for people to compare and I did actually intend to include him! Henka could be a fabulous rider sometimes, but he definitely SHOULD have done better. Still a world-class rider, I do think he was one of the great under-achievers... As far as the others I listed, personally I wouldn't have included a couple of them on a short-list for the fifth spot, but I did so because others had mentioned them - or were likely to mention them. I did wonder about including the World Junior/U21, but when you look at the history of that event - and then what they actually made of themselves - it doesn't make good reading! That certainly applies to the runners-up, particularly in the early years; Owen, Jolly, Faizulin, Briggs, Courtney, Bargh etc; all capable riders, but not a World Final appearance between them! Of course, it was Henka's fellow Swede Peter Nahlin who pipped him to the title, but while he had a decent career himself, it wasn't really what he had promised... Steve Yes as i said before i missed his career.I might possibly have seen him before the Dons closed down,but by the time i came back to the sport he was on the way out anyway and i never saw him at that stage.By all accounts a great rider on his day,but lacked discipline or was it that he liked the booze too much?Not sure on that and don't want to attribute something to him that is wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wessex Wanderer Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 Agree with most that Fundin, Rickardsson, Knutsson and Michanek are top four but the fifth place could be any one of about half a dozen. Jansson might very well have joined then but for his tragic end. Nygren could match anyone as could Nordin and AJ. For some reason Bengt Jansson never seems to get the credit he deserves, maybe if he had won that run-off against Fundin things would be different. Soren Sjosten and Toby Harrysson were excellent at league level but with Rune Sormander were not quite up to those others. Almost certainly I have missed one or two. In the end I think I would put Nygren in the top 5 due to his incredible consistency over a very long career. Again, a brilliant thread. Thanks for starting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 Agree with most that Fundin, Rickardsson, Knutsson and Michanek are top four but the fifth place could be any one of about half a dozen. Jansson might very well have joined then but for his tragic end. Nygren could match anyone as could Nordin and AJ. For some reason Bengt Jansson never seems to get the credit he deserves, maybe if he had won that run-off against Fundin things would be different. Soren Sjosten and Toby Harrysson were excellent at league level but with Rune Sormander were not quite up to those others. Almost certainly I have missed one or two. In the end I think I would put Nygren in the top 5 due to his incredible consistency over a very long career. Again, a brilliant thread. Thanks for starting it. I certainly agree about Bengt Jansson. A pretty impressive World Final record, and several good years in the BL. I know he never became Swedish Champion, but he was up against Fundin, Nordin, Michanek, Sjosten, Harrysson, Persson, Tommy Jansson etc; there were a fair number of world class Swedes at that time... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) I certainly agree about Bengt Jansson. A pretty impressive World Final record, and several good years in the BL. I know he never became Swedish Champion, but he was up against Fundin, Nordin, Michanek, Sjosten, Harrysson, Persson, Tommy Jansson etc; there were a fair number of world class Swedes at that time... Steve Not forgetting Hasse Holmqvist as well. Edited June 18, 2017 by norbold 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BL65 Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 Not forgetting Hasse Holmqvist as well. Barry Briggs won't forget Hasse, who collected him coming off the fourth bend and put him into the fence and out of the GB v Sweden test match at Wolverhampton in 1968. The Swedes developed a habit of damaging Briggo in the late 60s and early 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 Not forgetting Hasse Holmqvist as well. One of my favourites at Oxford (1973) but I guess the Swede who left me with an early impression was Anders Michanek...nigh unbeatable at Cowley when he used to visit at Cowley until Dag Lovaas lowered his colours in 1975. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 Not forgetting Hasse Holmqvist as well. I never rated Hasse quite as highly as the others that have been mentioned, although he rode well at Wembley in '69. I think another one who could rate alongside Hasse was Leif Enecrona, but I never really saw much of him... Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) We're all guilty of being biased towards the eras we spectated most frequently. I'm no different. But I am still surprised to see any debate around Per Jonsson being in the top five Swedes ever. He was a full deserving World Champion, achieved with some spectacular overtaking too. I'd also say he was the best in the world during 1992. I wouldn't begrudge Gary Havelock, he took his chance when it came. If not for an untimely thunderstorm in Wroclaw, then the outcome may have been different that day. I also saw him pick off Havvy in the semi-final at Bradford that showed incredible expertise and left me in no doubt as to who was the better rider that year. I thought he was such a technically excellent rider, he had a tremendous ability to 'carry speed' like few others. He was one of those who truly had it in him to overtake the very best riders in the world. I'm not sure you can say that of all the world's best ever riders. At the time of his career-ending accident, he was at his peak and I think he had another World Title or two well within his range. For me, it's less about the debate between Jonsson, Sjosten, Nygren and the rest. I'd say Per Jonsson should be debated alongside Michanek and Knutsson as the third best ever Swede. Edited June 19, 2017 by falcace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 At the time of his career-ending accident, he was at his peak and I think he had another World Title or two well within his range. I certainly get your points, and I cannot disagree with the fact that could have added more world titles, but the fact is - he didn't... It's always tough when careers are cut short, particularly at an early stage, and whether it is Per, Tommy, Cegielski, Ward, or whoever, comparing potential against achievement is very difficult. I think Kenny Carter is a prime example; as good as he was, he never fulfilled his potential. There are other riders - Bengt Jansson and Soren Sjosten, for example - who, although not succeeding in winning the title, produced a number of excellent performances over a lengthy career. Steve 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) I never rated Hasse quite as highly as the others that have been mentioned, although he rode well at Wembley in '69. I think another one who could rate alongside Hasse was Leif Enecrona, but I never really saw much of him... Steve Hasse was last known to be the mechanic to 'Posa' Serenius...the ice racer. Edited June 19, 2017 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 Have to agree with Falcao. To me: Funding and Rickardsson are clearly 1 and 2. Hard to see past knuttson and Michanek for 3 and 4. And per Jonsson I thought clearly number 5. World champion and had his career cut short while at his peak preventing him adding to it. And under a gp system may well have been a world champion, which couldn't be said of any of the others being mentioned for that spot. I'd have to assume it comes down to "era bias"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 I certainly get your points, and I cannot disagree with the fact that could have added more world titles, but the fact is - he didn't... It's always tough when careers are cut short, particularly at an early stage, and whether it is Per, Tommy, Cegielski, Ward, or whoever, comparing potential against achievement is very difficult. I think Kenny Carter is a prime example; as good as he was, he never fulfilled his potential. There are other riders - Bengt Jansson and Soren Sjosten, for example - who, although not succeeding in winning the title, produced a number of excellent performances over a lengthy career. Steve Yep, I agree with a lot of that. It's not provable that Per Jonsson would have won more titles. BUT, the fact that he had already won one makes it much more credible that he would have won again, having already climbed the mountain once. Something that cannot be said of the rest who sadly had their careers cut short. Although if backed into a corner, I'd say Ward would have won it one day. The rest? Hmmm, probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 Think you just have to look at someone like Peter Collins,maybe even Lee.You would have put money on it that they would once they got that first title have added to it......but they never did.I could speculate that Tommy would have gone on to be a multiple champ,but it is just that.Guess work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 Barry Briggs won't forget Hasse, who collected him coming off the fourth bend and put him into the fence and out of the GB v Sweden test match at Wolverhampton in 1968. The Swedes developed a habit of damaging Briggo in the late 60s and early 70s. They certainly did. That is why I have no use for Bernt Persson who T-Boned Briggo in the 1972 World Final. Cost him his thumb and, in my opinion, another World Championship. I was so pleased when Mauger beat Persson in the run-off. He killed off Persson's chances before ever the Tapes went up. Mauger totally out psyched him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 OK-recognise these are guys I saw pre-68 but nevertheless was aware of their accomplishments until the mid 70's (we oughtta have a thread titled maybe "Many years gone by"!!!). #1 no question has to be Fundin #2 Michanek #3 Knutsson #4 Sjosten #5 Nordin-never got to see some of the others mentioned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 After the very sad death of Tommy Jansson Sweden started to decline as a world power. It must be remembered that Jan Andersson kept the flag flying during those barren years until the likes of Henka Gustafsson, Jimmy Nilsen and Per Jonsson appeared on the scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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