Sidney the robin Posted June 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) Think people are being very biased against Tai.I am no great fan of his,but he has proved to be up with the very best ever and his career is far from over.maybe it would have been better to leave him out until his riding days are over and then we could judge exactly how good he was over whatever period it turns out to be.One thing to remember is that Tai won his titles by riding on a variety of tracks around Europe and the world Fred Williams,Tommy Price and even Peter Craven only ever won titles at home in Wembley stadium Even if Tai wins more titles i still would not place him above Craven ,PC, Lee maybe it is bias though😜 Edited June 12, 2017 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 CravenCollinsWoffinden LeeWilliams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 Really interesting that Red, and Grachan has a great point in the word Longevity means alot . If Havelock was included, he would be below Woffinden for me (and probably for everyone else) If Carter qualified for the list (which I know he doesn't), I would place him third behind Michael Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted June 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 If Havelock was included, he would be below Woffinden for me (and probably for everyone else) If Carter qualified for the list (which I know he doesn't), I would place him third behind Michael Lee A big shout that Red i don't think many would agree with you on that one i am like you i rated Carter very highly as a rider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) And I disagree with Rob. The year Havvy was world champ he was clearly one of the top 3 or 4 riders in the world. You could not say the same of Muller or Sckaziel. It only takes a little digging into Szczakiel's record to realise how wasn't quite as weak a World Champion as portrayed. For starters, he's a multiple World Champion, with an individual and a pairs (in which he scored a paid maximum). In both of those, he beat Ivan Mauger on track, to knock Ivan into second place. And Ivan reckoned their overall head-to-head during this period was 7-6 to Mauger. You could argue Szczakiel was weaker outside Poland, but then again you could argue e.g. Freddie Williams won two World Finals and both were on his own track. And note that I said Muller was 'competition' for worst World Champ for Havvy. Yes, Havvy had a better season in 1992 than Muller had in 1983, but then again, Muller stayed towards the top for longer - e.g. Muller was incredibly fast at Katowice in 1976. The 1992 World Final had perhaps have the weakest line-up for a final - the reigning champion (Jan O) wasn't even there. The big clue is that Gert Handberg, a middling third heat-leader, finished third in the final. Havvy did brilliantly to win that final, but never looked like winning a second one. All the best Rob Edited June 13, 2017 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 Rob, I'd argue though that Szczakiel's fall from grace was incredibly swift. Barely days after winning the 1973 World Final he scored 0 in the World Team Cup Final at Wembley. He unfortunately did the same in the following year's WTC final, though I can't recall where it was held. Havvy for all his injuries, was part and parcel of the International scene upto the late 1990's whilst Szczakiel simply disappeared from view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 If Havelock was included, he would be below Woffinden for me (and probably for everyone else) If Carter qualified for the list (which I know he doesn't), I would place him third behind Michael Lee As someone who was a regular.at Hyde Rd in the 80s, with frequent visits to The Shay and Odsal,you won't find many with as much respect as I have for carters ability. But imho there is no way he can be ranked ahead of either PC, Woffy or Lee. Would struggle to see him ranked ahead of the likes of Williams or Price either. In terms of post war Brits I'd suggest carter along with Parker are arguably the two best not to be world champ, but I'd have Parker ahead of kc 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 If Peter Collins had won the world championship in 1977 (gammy leg year), and he nearly did but tired due to injury, I would put him at the top equal with the other PC, Peter Craven. Any more then that, he would be ahead of P Craven on the basis Collins would have won both his world championships on foreign soil. As for the rest, yes I seen Woffinden and in 2013-15 he was magic on the bike with the way he was passing with relative ease (though it would'nt have been. Only just saw Lee before I went absent for 30 years, never seen Loram, might have seen Freddie Williams but too young to remember. So I cant finish the list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 It only takes a little digging into Szczakiel's record to realise how wasn't quite as weak a World Champion as portrayed. For starters, he's a multiple World Champion, with an individual and a pairs (in which he scored a paid maximum). In both of those, he beat Ivan Mauger on track, to knock Ivan into second place. And Ivan reckoned their overall head-to-head during this period was 7-6 to Mauger. You could argue Szczakiel was weaker outside Poland, but then again you could argue e.g. Freddie Williams won two World Finals and both were on his own track. And note that I said Muller was 'competition' for worst World Champ for Havvy. Yes, Havvy had a better season in 1992 than Muller had in 1983, but then again, Muller stayed towards the top for longer - e.g. Muller was incredibly fast at Katowice in 1976. The 1992 World Final had perhaps have the weakest line-up for a final - the reigning champion (Jan O) wasn't even there. The big clue is that Gert Handberg, a middling third heat-leader, finished third in the final. Havvy did brilliantly to win that final, but never looked like winning a second one. All the best Rob ...You're forgetting Hans wasn't riding either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 ...You're forgetting Hans wasn't riding either! I focused more on Jan O, because he was the defending champion. But yes, no Jan O, no Hans, no Erik. Only former champion was Per Jonsson. He went into the meeting as favourite, but dropped three points in his opening ride. It meant a wide-open World Final, and Havvy was the one who stepped forward to take it. All the best Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 Think people are being very biased against Tai.I am no great fan of his,but he has proved to be up with the very best ever and his career is far from over.maybe it would have been better to leave him out until his riding days are over and then we could judge exactly how good he was over whatever period it turns out to be.One thing to remember is that Tai won his titles by riding on a variety of tracks around Europe and the world Fred Williams,Tommy Price and even Peter Craven only ever won titles at home in Wembley stadium They only won world titles at Wembley as that was where all the world finals were held so they never had any other option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 They only won world titles at Wembley as that was where all the world finals were held so they never had any other option Very true mtm. You can only ride the Track where they hold the event. Not the fault of Price, Williams or Craven that Wembley was the only Track to hold World Finals at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 They only won world titles at Wembley as that was where all the world finals were held so they never had any other option You are mistaken.Peter Craven rode in a Swedish world final and finished around 10th,i think 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 You are mistaken.Peter Craven rode in a Swedish world final and finished around 10th,i think By golly you are right. Very well spotted. Malmo, Sweden was the venue and Peter scored 6 Points to finish, as you stated, 10th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted June 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 I would imagine winning a World Title at the revered Wembley stadium would be as hard as anywhere in the world .The noise the expectation i take my hat off to anyone who won a WC in London. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 I dont think riders did too many foreign track visits in those days. As Ove Fundin had won two world titles, finished 2nd three times (all in 5 years) and other Swedes were qualifying, it was only right to take the world final abroad - as much as I disliked the idea at the time. By the late 1950's Polish riders were making appearances at Wembly , and Germany (Hofmeister) but it took till 1970 for Poland to land a world final - the rest is history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted June 14, 2017 Report Share Posted June 14, 2017 w I would imagine winning a World Title at the revered Wembley stadium would be as hard as anywhere in the world .The noise the expectation i take my hat off to anyone who won a WC in London. People seem to forget in years gone by riders had to get through qualifying rounds normal three to get to Wembley in the first place and any body could enter not the case today.There were many cases where top riders did not have score enough points to get through, not like today when the top rider just get picked automatically from one year to the next 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted June 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2017 w People seem to forget in years gone by riders had to get through qualifying rounds normal three to get to Wembley in the first place and any body could enter not the case today.There were many cases where top riders did not have score enough points to get through, not like today when the top rider just get picked automatically from one year to the next Are you aaying the GP series now is virtually a closed shop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 14, 2017 Report Share Posted June 14, 2017 Are you aaying the GP series now is virtually a closed shop? Isn't it largely so Sidney? Says me trying to be diplomatic for once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted June 14, 2017 Report Share Posted June 14, 2017 Isn't it largely so Sidney? Says me trying to be diplomatic for once. Is that a bad thing, given for example that this year has basically the top 15 riders in the world in it? It's hard to name more than 1 or 2 riders who would improve it, and none who would be contenders.In any case, there are 3 spots available for riders outside the top 8 in the world to qualify for. I'd say in many respects that is an easier task than qualifying for the world final via the old inter continental round. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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