Do Riders 'manipulate' Their Averages To Get A Ride?

[Paulco]

 

Good grief, wait till we get to September/October when the riders who know they wont be back at their present teams start playing a wonky old hand, maybe it could be argued they`ve started already at Berwick.

At the start of the season when teams were built ( in both leagues ) to existing PL averages from last season , it made the rolling averages redundant .

[A ORLOV]

Of course some riders do, if the bspa keep having or reducing the team limit riders will want a job next year. Many fans are fed up with teams changing every year and having a good rider improve, increase his average then get dropped from the team the following season.

[screm]

At the start of the season when teams were built ( in both leagues ) to existing PL averages from last season , it made the rolling averages redundant .

 

I get the reason to start afresh but they could've started the rolling averages from the start of the season, going back to monthly averages is a backward step IMO and will be abused. Rolling averages weren't perfect but at least was harder to abuse.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Rolling averages are still in place - it was just started afresh to only include meetings from 2017.

 

All league meetings will be built into each update of a riders average (fortnightly) with no max included.

[IronScorpion]

At the start of the season, we had team building averages from 2016 (& beyond for some riders). As the season progressed the standard 4H & 4A meetings were used to start a new average for 2017. Once a new average has been achieved then an established average is changed every 2 weeks (Regulation 16.2.6.1) throughout the season.

 

As no team changes are permitted after July 31, if you are not in a team then, basically, that is your season over.

 

I am not too sure what will happen if injuries occur after this period as I have not seen anything in print. There will probably be a Supplementary Regulation appear early August to cover this.

[moxey63]

Of course some riders purposely reduce their figures. But in doing so they are also reducing their incomes, are they not. But then that could be better than not getting a team spot somewhere the next season. It's a funny situation.

 

I'd also guess some riders do the jobs that clubs want them to do, sometimes too well, get a decent average, only for it to be too high for majority of clubs to fit them in the following season. I remember Gordon Kennett's average at Wolves in 1994 ended his career after he started the season with heatleader scores. Didn't Paul Smith's end because of the same situation when he pushed his figure into the sevens?

Edited May 21, 2017 by moxey63

[Vincent Blachshadow]

Of course some riders purposely reduce their figures. But in doing so they are also reducing their incomes, are they not. But then that could be better than not getting a team spot somewhere the next season. It's a funny situation.

 

 

Depends on why they're shedding points. If it's for the club's benefit their pay-packet might not suffer.

[moxey63]

 

Depends on why they're shedding points. If it's for the club's benefit their pay-packet might not suffer.

 

 

Yes, I have sort of known this for some time...

 

So, why do we believe in something that is quite corrupt? Why do we stand there and support something that may be scripted - not always, but enough to have you question about a rider passing another? Was it a good overtake or did the leading rider slow up? Why support a great spectacle that is damaged by its rules?

Edited May 21, 2017 by moxey63

[Gambo]

Rolling Averages will return next season.

It was just because of the 'levelling' of averages this year that previous season's scores were not used.

[Gresham]

 

 

Yes, I have sort of known this for some time...

 

So, why do we believe in something that is quite corrupt? Why do we stand there and support something that may be scripted - not always, but enough to have you question about a rider passing another? Was it a good overtake or did the leading rider slow up? Why support a great spectacle that is damaged by its rules?

Isn't all sport that involves money and winning at all costs 'corrupt' though?

 

How do you follow Athletics or Cycling as an example?

 

No sport is perfect.

 

Maybe you need to ask yourself what got you interested in speedway in the first place?

 

Was it the rules, the averages, the people? Or was it just being thrilled by watching a bike being ridden at high speed on shale?

 

We can all get embroiled in rules, regs, what riders do or don't etc. It takes over the basic joy of watching a rider power slide a speedway bike.

 

Back in the day...'manipulation' and 'corruption' still happened, if not more. we just see it with rose tinted glasses on.

 

I went to Buxton yesterday. Speedway at it's rawest. My mates nephew rides for Cradley.

 

Seeing some of those youngsters trying to win, and when they did, the joy and exuberance on their faces, made it all worth while. Young Joe Lawlor ecstatic in the pits. The absolute frustration by Danny Ayres of blowing an engine whilst leading...shouting and punching his bike in total despair.

 

Being up close to all the bikes...feeling the buzz. That's what Speedway is about. Forget the GP boys and all the silly rules etc.

 

Just get down to a track again, and see it through clearer less cynical eyes, and try and enjoy again. I have and I'm glad I did. It's not all bad...in fact it's still a very good sport in it's rawest state. ;-)

[moxey63]

Isn't all sport that involves money and winning at all costs 'corrupt' though?

 

How do you follow Athletics or Cycling as an example?

 

No sport is perfect.

 

Maybe you need to ask yourself what got you interested in speedway in the first place?

 

Was it the rules, the averages, the people? Or was it just being thrilled by watching a bike being ridden at high speed on shale?

 

We can all get embroiled in rules, regs, what riders do or don't etc. It takes over the basic joy of watching a rider power slide a speedway bike.

 

Back in the day...'manipulation' and 'corruption' still happened, if not more. we just see it with rose tinted glasses on.

 

I went to Buxton yesterday. Speedway at it's rawest. My mates nephew rides for Cradley.

 

Seeing some of those youngsters trying to win, and when they did, the joy and exuberance on their faces, made it all worth while. Young Joe Lawlor ecstatic in the pits. The absolute frustration by Danny Ayres of blowing an engine whilst leading...shouting and punching his bike in total despair.

 

Being up close to all the bikes...feeling the buzz. That's what Speedway is about. Forget the GP boys and all the silly rules etc.

 

Just get down to a track again, and see it through clearer less cynical eyes, and try and enjoy again. I have and I'm glad I did. It's not all bad...in fact it's still a very good sport in it's rawest state. ;-)

 

I think I prefer speedway the lower down the leagues it is.

 

Athletics and cycling are primarily individual sports, I think, and I immediately embraced speedway because it was a team sport with individual events added to supplement it at the time.

 

Forty years have passed and it now seems, to me, speedway is an individual sport trying to get away with wearing team clothing. Domestic speedway in 1975 was very much like what you describe from your Buxton experience yesterday. Riders did their best in the knowledge that they didn't have another meeting for even another week, and they had to score all the points they could... and not go half-rev in the luxury that their next pay cheque was perhaps later that day... even in another league, another country.

 

When you see a rider struggling for a point on his home track for your side, it does raise the question in your mind as to whether he's saving himself for something he classes as more important, another meeting for another league club. That shouldn't be in your mind. I am cynical, I know. A bad meeting for your rider in the old days usually meant he had motor troubles or loss of confidence.

Edited May 22, 2017 by moxey63

[Gresham]

 

I think I prefer speedway the lower down the leagues it is.

 

Athletics and cycling are primarily individual sports, I think, and I immediately embraced speedway because it was a team sport with individual events added to supplement it at the time.

 

Forty years have passed and it now seems, to me, speedway is an individual sport trying to get away with wearing team clothing. Domestic speedway in 1975 was very much like what you describe from your Buxton experience yesterday. Riders did their best in the knowledge that they didn't have another meeting for even another week, and they had to score all the points they could... and not go half-rev in the luxury that their next pay cheque was perhaps later that day... even in another league, another country.

 

When you see a rider struggling for a point on his home track for your side, it does raise the question in your mind as to whether he's saving himself for something he classes as more important, another meeting for another league club. That shouldn't be in your mind. I am cynical, I know. A bad meeting for your rider in the old days usually meant he had motor troubles or loss of confidence.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, lest not forget how well documented rides were 'fixed' back in the day. Whilst it was a different system back then, a totally different world, all the riders were driven by the buck to some extent.

 

Owners, Promotors, riders...they were all 'at it'.

 

It's nice to be nostalgic...but times have moved on. Surely it's best to try and find something in Speedway you like and enjoy it now...rather than dwelling on the past. Can't be good for mind or health...surely? Live for now and the future...whilst it may not be to our liking, as is most of the world these days imo, it's no point dwelling on the past.

 

There is still a lot to embrace in Speedway. Salt of the earth fans, still riders trying to earn a buck and ride for there clubs, whilst also doing 'day jobs' like us.

 

Yes you are probably right that Speedway is closer to 'how it used to be' in the lower leagues...but you still see it with certain Prem riders.

 

I try to be philosophical.

 

It's like when you hear people say...'the kids, or world of today!!!!'

 

Well the reason it's like it is because our Generation allowed it.

 

The same for Speedway.

 

Speedway has never in it's truest sense been a 'Team' sport...never. It's always been 7 individuals with their own equipment and engines, masquerading as a team.

 

The powers that be, should have nipped that in the bud back in the day. It would have stopped escalating bills and riders having to pay for expensive servicing and tuning. They 'We' screwed up back in the 'Golden era'.

 

Standardised team engines...club engines...sealed. Low maintenance, low cost...just pure racing.

 

I'm sure half the Clubs that have gone through lack of money would still be running if we had this in place.

 

Our fault...we should have been crying out for this and insisting way before now.

 

In the meantime...try and get to a meeting and embrace what you remembered ;-)

[Fromafar]

I think I prefer speedway the lower down the leagues it is.

 

Athletics and cycling are primarily individual sports, I think, and I immediately embraced speedway because it was a team sport with individual events added to supplement it at the time.

 

Forty years have passed and it now seems, to me, speedway is an individual sport trying to get away with wearing team clothing. Domestic speedway in 1975 was very much like what you describe from your Buxton experience yesterday. Riders did their best in the knowledge that they didn't have another meeting for even another week, and they had to score all the points they could... and not go half-rev in the luxury that their next pay cheque was perhaps later that day... even in another league, another country.

 

When you see a rider struggling for a point on his home track for your side, it does raise the question in your mind as to whether he's saving himself for something he classes as more important, another meeting for another league club. That shouldn't be in your mind. I am cynical, I know. A bad meeting for your rider in the old days usually meant he had motor troubles or loss of confidence.

 

I admit I'm cynical but I agree with your point regarding riders keeping themselves safe thinking about their next meeting.They can be riding 3-4 times a week these days and don't want injured.They don't "battle" for very point.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Why dont we just have race averages instead of match average , so basically scrap the x4 , then we will only have 0-1, 1-2 and 2-3 point average riders , less scope for manipulating a riders average because realistically once your an 1-2 average rider unless you have a totally exceptional season either good or bad your average won't change ,teams are made up of a total of say 11 points for top 5 and 2 reserves like they use in Poland, under 21 Brits with no average until they 22 , 0-1 will be 1 point rider , 1-2 will be 2 point rider , seems simple enough to me 😀

[Gresham]

I admit I'm cynical but I agree with your point regarding riders keeping themselves safe thinking about their next meeting.They can be riding 3-4 times a week these days and don't want injured.They don't "battle" for very point.

That can be said of football and Rugby too...saving themselves or dropped for the next 'more important' game. Or not going in hard for a tackle. Must happen in many other sports too.

Difference being...they still get paid regardless.

Was only talking yesterday about how much riders get paid by their insurance when out injured.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Why dont we just have race averages instead of match average , so basically scrap the x4 , then we will only have 0-1, 1-2 and 2-3 point average riders , less scope for manipulating a riders average because realistically once your an 1-2 average rider unless you have a totally exceptional season either good or bad your average won't change ,teams are made up of a total of say 11 points for top 5 and 2 reserves like they use in Poland, under 21 Brits with no average until they 22 , 0-1 will be 1 point rider , 1-2 will be 2 point rider , seems simple enough to me 😀

the downside to this is it will lead to a bigger disparity in team strengths IMO

 

A rider averaging 1.01 (4.04 old money) would be the same as one averaging 1.99 (7.96 old money)

 

The richer teams coud well end up with vastly better riders in supposedly equal teams.

[Fromafar]

That can be said of football and Rugby too...saving themselves or dropped for the next 'more important' game. Or not going in hard for a tackle. Must happen in many other sports too.

Difference being...they still get paid regardless.

Was only talking yesterday about how much riders get paid by their insurance when out injured.

Agree,in speedway these days they are going that fast and the tracks are that slick that the majority of the time putting in a lot of effort has very little reward unless the rider in front makes a mistake ,I can see the point of taking what's on offer without maximum effort and just move on to next race and hope you make a "gate" Edited May 22, 2017 by Fromafar

[waiheke1]

Why dont we just have race averages instead of match average , so basically scrap the x4 , then we will only have 0-1, 1-2 and 2-3 point average riders , less scope for manipulating a riders average because realistically once your an 1-2 average rider unless you have a totally exceptional season either good or bad your average won't change ,teams are made up of a total of say 11 points for top 5 and 2 reserves like they use in Poland, under 21 Brits with no average until they 22 , 0-1 will be 1 point rider , 1-2 will be 2 point rider , seems simple enough to me 😀

Scrapping the 4 multiplier had zero difference. Basically you are saying if you are 4 or less you are a 4, 8 or less an 8 12 or less a 12. Effectively a grading system which would make a 4.01 rider unemployable.

[Hamish McRaker]

Of course some riders do, if the bspa keep having or reducing the team limit riders will want a job next year. Many fans are fed up with teams changing every year and having a good rider improve, increase his average then get dropped from the team the following season.

In that case, there should be a discount from the riders average applying where a team keeps a rider from one season to the next.

If he then moves mid-season or takes on a new doubleup position, the discount should be added-on to what his average is at that time.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Scrapping the 4 multiplier had zero difference. Basically you are saying if you are 4 or less you are a 4, 8 or less an 8 12 or less a 12. Effectively a grading system which would make a 4.01 rider unemployable.

firstly if you scrap stupid doubling up no rider is unemployable and before you say there are not enough riders , it has been proved many times on here and elsewhere there is more than enough riders to fill British speedway with some to spare and it will mean that for 95% of riders average manipulation would be pointless unlike now where it's 90% will be thinking about it Edited May 22, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE