Gresham Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 Not sure whether this has been discussed before, but has it been known for riders to do this in recent years? I'm presuming so... Was listening to a rider recently who wants a ride in the Championship as well as the Prem. To double up. When asked if he had one lined up, he said he'd had a few phone calls, but that it's a 'numbers game'. Knowing that...and wanting to get signed up, surely it's too tempting not to drop a few points to earn more in the long run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 Not sure whether this has been discussed before, but has it been known for riders to do this in recent years? I'm presuming so... Was listening to a rider recently who wants a ride in the Championship as well as the Prem. To double up. When asked if he had one lined up, he said he'd had a few phone calls, but that it's a 'numbers game'. Knowing that...and wanting to get signed up, surely it's too tempting not to drop a few points to earn more in the long run? Yip! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeW Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) It's amazing the lengths people go to to get a ride!! Edited May 20, 2017 by brough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted May 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 Yip! At the cost of his team losing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigbo Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 Why would riders care if the team wins or loses? They'll all be off to ride for a different one the next day anyway. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) Why would riders care if the team wins or loses? They'll all be off to ride for a different one the next day anyway. That is what finally did me in. Do you know, I think this uncertainty of whether teams/riders were trying to drop points on purpose made me start questioning if even the best races are staged-managed. When we had that Crump v Pedersen slow-race in the World Cup about 10 years back, because one of the countries was trying to fall enough points behind to be able to use a tac-sub, and then we had the other rider purposely slowing so the one trying intentionally to finish behind him didn't (if you know where I'm at) and so to be unable to use double-point tac-sub. It was pathetic. I thought they were both going to get off their machines and try and body push each other over.. even wrestle each other over. One bad apple and all that can tarnish your belief a bit more. Edited May 20, 2017 by moxey63 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 At the cost of his team losing?Yip,espiecially when their team is away from home,that's when you throw in the poor meeting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted May 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 Why would riders care if the team wins or loses? They'll all be off to ride for a different one the next day anyway. You have a point. Which is why I must stop myself getting too involved in looking at averages and team set ups. Note to self...just enjoy the racing. ;-) Which is hard to do, if you think a rider in particular is not riding to his potential, so as to manipulate his average. The same can be said when discussing the pro's and con's of a riders ability and what he scored on the night. We all know how good a rider is when his engine is at it's best...so how can fans discuss the probability of a meeting result, or how a rider performed on the night, if we don't know how his engines were, or whether he was tinkering or trying new things etc. Tungate comes to mind of late...As did Craig Cook last night only scoring 6 trying out a new engine. It's hard to get your head around, even after so many years following the sport. It's between a rock and hard place tbh. Last night I witnessed Richard Lawson on a slower engine to that of Nichols and Harris...but he gated and used superb track craft to block the moves of those riders when he faced them. On other occasions, you see talented riders purely beaten by another's engine and not their skill on a bike. For me, because of that, it's hard to take Team Speedway seriously. As it's all down to averages, which can be manipulated at a cost of losing, and whether you have fast engines or not. I love the spectacle and good honest racing...but sometimes when you have these thoughts lingering in your head it takes the gloss off the sport. I know it's been done to death, but I can only dream of standardised Club engines. You can't blame the engines then, just the riders skill or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 Do bears s@@t in the woods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 That is what finally did me in. Do you know, I think this uncertainty of whether teams/riders were trying to drop points on purpose made me start questioning if even the best races are staged-managed. When we had that Crump v Pedersen slow-race in the World Cup about 10 years back, because one of the countries was trying to fall enough points behind to be able to use a tac-sub, and then we had the other rider purposely slowing so the one trying intentionally to finish behind him didn't (if you know where I'm at) and so to be unable to use double-point tac-sub. It was pathetic. I thought they were both going to get off their machines and try and body push each other over.. even wrestle each other over. One bad apple and all that can tarnish your belief a bit more. Oh dear! The double-point T/S...one of the daftest rules in my view. Not sure whether this has been discussed before, but has it been known for riders to do this in recent years? I'm presuming so... Was listening to a rider recently who wants a ride in the Championship as well as the Prem. To double up. When asked if he had one lined up, he said he'd had a few phone calls, but that it's a 'numbers game'. Knowing that...and wanting to get signed up, surely it's too tempting not to drop a few points to earn more in the long run? It's been reported in the past that some riders were ordered to drop points so as to manipulate the overall team average. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 For me I have no doubt that riders ( and promoters ) do manipulate the averages and - "You can't blame the engines then, just the riders skill or not" add to that skill their motivation or that it's not worth a light trying to see if they can get past or not! Only "young guns" truly Go For It ( when they are young and hate being beaten ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 Yes. Next question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcatdiary Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 Do bears s@@t in the woods My thoughts exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 That is what finally did me in. Do you know, I think this uncertainty of whether teams/riders were trying to drop points on purpose made me start questioning if even the best races are staged-managed. When we had that Crump v Pedersen slow-race in the World Cup about 10 years back, because one of the countries was trying to fall enough points behind to be able to use a tac-sub, and then we had the other rider purposely slowing so the one trying intentionally to finish behind him didn't (if you know where I'm at) and so to be unable to use double-point tac-sub. It was pathetic. I thought they were both going to get off their machines and try and body push each other over.. even wrestle each other over. One bad apple and all that can tarnish your belief a bit more. Jesus. How many times now have you said 'This is what did me in'. You were done in before any of these things you keep latching on to. Staggers me though that someone continues to frequent a forum regarding something they consistently tell us they have no interest in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert72 Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 Yes of course riders drop their average the same as riders get excluded when needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted May 21, 2017 Report Share Posted May 21, 2017 Jesus. How many times now have you said 'This is what did me in'. You were done in before any of these things you keep latching on to. Staggers me though that someone continues to frequent a forum regarding something they consistently tell us they have no interest in. Well said. It's the old story, some people go through life looking for the positives and others go through looking for the negatives. We all know where Moxey fits in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulco Posted May 21, 2017 Report Share Posted May 21, 2017 Riders not putting it all in to drop their average (Kevin Wolbert , Glasgow 2014 ) , much the same as footballers not putting it all in to get rid of a manager . Suppose these sorts of things happen in team sports , not just speedway . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screm Posted May 21, 2017 Report Share Posted May 21, 2017 Not sure whether this has been discussed before, but has it been known for riders to do this in recent years? I'm presuming so... Was listening to a rider recently who wants a ride in the Championship as well as the Prem. To double up. When asked if he had one lined up, he said he'd had a few phone calls, but that it's a 'numbers game'. Knowing that...and wanting to get signed up, surely it's too tempting not to drop a few points to earn more in the long run? Yes, which leads to my question. We did have rolling averages that were worked out by the riders last 28 meetings, I think I am right in saying. Do we still have that, if not how are averages worked out now, please don't tell me we have gone back to monthly, as (back to thread ) that was easy and open to abuse, average fiddling, cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulco Posted May 21, 2017 Report Share Posted May 21, 2017 Yes, which leads to my question. We did have rolling averages that were worked out by the riders last 28 meetings, I think I am right in saying. Do we still have that, if not how are averages worked out now, please don't tell me we have gone back to monthly, as (back to thread ) that was easy and open to abuse, average fiddling, cheating. Afraid so , the rolling averages are gone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screm Posted May 21, 2017 Report Share Posted May 21, 2017 Afraid so , the rolling averages are gone Good grief, wait till we get to September/October when the riders who know they wont be back at their present teams start playing a wonky old hand, maybe it could be argued they`ve started already at Berwick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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