Is There A Need For Guest Riders?

[Paulco]

Unfortunately if you want the Leagues to have any credibilty, then EVERYTHING is wrong with guest riders. ..

 

It's supposedly a National Title in a Professional sport thats being rode for...

 

To have any kudos to the title of 'Champion' then there has to be integrity and credibility. And from a fans perspective if no-one cares who wins a National Title in any sport, then why bother attending? In fact why bother holding the Championships in the first place?

 

Bringing in 'ringers' to replace lesser competitor's isn't even allowed in my lads U14 football league as photo id's have been used this season which get checked by the ref before each game..

 

Yet in Speedway you can bring in a 'track expert' to replace your missing rider depending on where you are racing..

 

What happened (and was widely accepted) even just ten years ago is no longer viable in the modern world of instant global information...

 

Years ago, you found out that your team, or the opponents, were missing their best riders so had guests when you got into the stadium. Nowadays you have all the team details a click of a button away, from the day before right up until the minute tapes are up..

 

In other words, plenty of time for the fans to decide whether the meeting has enough integrity or credibility for them to attend...

 

Having a reduced number of team places, eight team Leagues, a fit for purpose RR operating model and a well planned fixture list would go a long, long way in eradicating the need for to 'borrow' guests from your competitors who are also trying to win the same competition..

 

No integrity? No credibilty? No kudos in winning?

 

Then really, why bother?

Cant argue with any of that , but what is the answer ? Squads have been mentioned , but isn't financially viable or is there sufficient riders willing to ride here . And teams get bad luck with injuries before we even go into the shambles the out of control doubling up has caused .

If we do away with guests , then team speedway will be unworkable .

[The Third Man]

There have always been guests since I started going 50 years ago.

 

However what was originally for a number 1 rider either injured or on international duty has now turned into an epidemic of guests for any reason. Also if each team had a guest or RR then they cancelled each other out and a number 8 came in, what happened to the number 8 (although now three teams could have the same number 8 I suppose)

 

teams tried to make sure that they did not ride on a night where clashes occurred, now it doesn't seem to matter, just ride and have guests and or rr

 

the one I cant get my head around is a guest for a rider who is riding for another team on the same night and having guests for a reserve when they are injured.

 

same with rider replacement, used to be for an injured heat leader (by definition anyone of the top three in the averages) now again its for anyone except reserves, one of those is covered by a guest so isn't needed

 

I want to pay to see seven man teams of riders affiliated to my team, again, what happened to a number 8 replacing a reserve, not a 6 man championship select team against another 6 man championship select team

Edited May 21, 2017 by The Third Man

[Paulco]

There have always been guests since I started going 50 years ago.

 

However what was originally for a number 1 rider either injured or on international duty has now turned into an epidemic of guests for any reason. Also if each team had a guest or RR then they cancelled each other out and a number 8 came in, what happened to the number 8 (although now three teams could have the same number 8 I suppose)

 

the one I cant get my head around is a guest for a rider who is riding for another team on the same night and having guests for a reserve when they are injured.

 

same with rider replacement, used to be for an injured heat leader (by definition anyone of the top three in the averages) now again its for anyone except reserves, one of those is covered by a guest so isn't needed

 

I want to pay to see seven man teams of riders affiliated to my team, again, what happened to a number 8 replacing a reserve, not a 6 man championship select team against another 6 man championship select team

Doubling up being as it is , means the guest thing just gets worse and worse .

[steve roberts]

There have always been guests since I started going 50 years ago.

 

However what was originally for a number 1 rider either injured or on international duty has now turned into an epidemic of guests for any reason. Also if each team had a guest or RR then they cancelled each other out and a number 8 came in, what happened to the number 8 (although now three teams could have the same number 8 I suppose)

 

teams tried to make sure that they did not ride on a night where clashes occurred, now it doesn't seem to matter, just ride and have guests and or rr

 

the one I cant get my head around is a guest for a rider who is riding for another team on the same night and having guests for a reserve when they are injured.

 

same with rider replacement, used to be for an injured heat leader (by definition anyone of the top three in the averages) now again its for anyone except reserves, one of those is covered by a guest so isn't needed

 

I want to pay to see seven man teams of riders affiliated to my team, again, what happened to a number 8 replacing a reserve, not a 6 man championship select team against another 6 man championship select team

As I've often commented when the British League Division Two was formed in 1968 teams often 'doubled up' with promotions competing in Division One. My team (Oxford) had promotional ties with both Eastbourne and Peterborough and would use riders from them when short handed.

 

Riders who progressed thru' Eastbourne to Oxford/White City included Gordon Kennett, Malcolm Ballard, Trevor Geer, Steve Weatherley, Paul Gachet, Eric Dugard etc and from Peterborough John Davis and Richard Greer. Not perfect but at least the riders were familiar with the Cowley faithful and it's what initially Division Two was all about...generating youngsters for the future.

Edited May 21, 2017 by steve roberts

[The White Knight]

There have always been guests since I started going 50 years ago.

 

However what was originally for a number 1 rider either injured or on international duty has now turned into an epidemic of guests for any reason. Also if each team had a guest or RR then they cancelled each other out and a number 8 came in, what happened to the number 8 (although now three teams could have the same number 8 I suppose)

 

teams tried to make sure that they did not ride on a night where clashes occurred, now it doesn't seem to matter, just ride and have guests and or rr

 

the one I cant get my head around is a guest for a rider who is riding for another team on the same night and having guests for a reserve when they are injured.

 

same with rider replacement, used to be for an injured heat leader (by definition anyone of the top three in the averages) now again its for anyone except reserves, one of those is covered by a guest so isn't needed

 

I want to pay to see seven man teams of riders affiliated to my team, again, what happened to a number 8 replacing a reserve, not a 6 man championship select team against another 6 man championship select team

I don't think it is asking too much to have seven Riders per Team. By Team - I mean Riders who I can relate to, Riders who I can support. How the hell can you support a Team that has Riders who you were booing like mad last week and you are supposed to cheer on this week.

 

British Speedway is rapidly becoming a Circus of people who can ride a Speedway Bike. People who drift from Track to Track selling their wares. They have no affection for, or affinity with, the Team? group of Riders that come together to ride in a particular Meeting.

 

I think it is very sad that we are in this mess.

 

One of the really special things about Speedway was the relationship between Riders and Supporters. Now that is gone - I ask - what do we really have left?

[The Third Man]

As I've often commented when the British League Division Two was formed in 1968 teams often 'doubled up' with promotions competing in Division One. My team (Oxford) had promotional ties with both Eastbourne and Peterborough and would use riders from them when short handed.

 

Riders who progressed thru' Eastbourne to Oxford/White City included Gordon Kennett, Malcolm Ballard, Trevor Geer, Steve Weatherley, Paul Gachet, Eric Dugard etc and from Peterborough John Davis and Richard Greer. Not perfect but at least the riders were familiar with the Cowley faithful and it's what initially Division Two was all about...generating youngsters for the future.

 

But they didnt double up in the same was as today, there were no guests or rr if your rider was riding for their normal team. An out of form rider could only be replaced 6 times in a season if my memory if correct.

 

Sheffield used their own riders who they had loaned out to BL2 teams or riders they signed on a short term basis to cover injured riders.

 

they didn't us a different rider every week or use riders from the same league to cover injured reserves, and the riders used the experience to gain confidence to move up a league the next season on the whole

Edited May 21, 2017 by The Third Man

[steve roberts]

 

But they double up in the same was as today, there were no guests or rr if your rider was riding for their normal team. An out of form rider could only be replaced 6 times in a season if my memory if correct.

 

Sheffield used their own riders who they had loaned out to BL2 teams or riders they signed on a short term basis to cover injured riders.

 

they didn't us a different rider every week or use riders from the same league to cover injured reserves, and the riders used the experience to gain confidence to move up a league the next season on the whole

..unfortunately I can't make comparisons with today as I'm not familiar with today's regulations.

[Mr Snackette]

To paraphrase the much loved Jim Royle: "Guests....."a necessary evil". My ar$e!!!!

 

Clearly, other leagues operate quite successfully without employing guest riders, yet for the UK ending the guest system would bring down civilisation as we know it. After all, by having a guest system it has led to the success that is British speedway, and it's continuing growth as it goes from strength to strength!!!

 

Of course, this isn't anything new. Back in the day, when I used to go to over 100 meetings a season (and that's around £1,800 that UK Speedway no longer gets!), it was a thorny subject then. I remember going to both legs of a KO Cup Final....I think it was 1989 Cradley v Wolves, and Jimmy Nilsen rode for both teams over the two legs. I never found out if he got a winners or losers medal....or both!!!!!

 

It lacked credibility then, and it lacks credibility now. But why change, given the success that is UK Speedway?!!!!!!!!

[The Third Man]

To be honest I think they are a necessary evil, as I have stated they have been around for the 50 years I have going to speedway and I cant see another way of doing it.

 

But how can a guest ride for both teams in a cup final as quoted above, and this season you could have a guest riding for one of their teams and against their other team in a relegation play off, now I cant wait for that farce to happen

Edited May 21, 2017 by The Third Man

[Garry1603]

Maybe there should be a restriction in the number of guests a team can use in a season? If they were allowed {say} six for the season there would be at least a few opportunities to give youth a chance whilst fielding a strong team for the 'big' matches.

[tigerowl]

I think the main words to come out of this thread are integrity, credibility and circus.

 

At the moment the sport has none of the first two words and the third is an accurate description of where things are at the moment.

 

Just looking at yesterday's fixtures and the Ipswich team at Scunthorpe contained Danny King (also rides for Leicester), Rory Schlein (also rides for Wolves), Justin Sedgmen (also rides for Belle Vue), Kyle Newman (also rides for Poole), Cameron Heeps (also rides for Somerset), Nathan Greaves (also rides for Wolves) and Connor Mountain (also rides for Mildenhall). That's a compete team of riders who double up for other clubs.

 

My own 'team', Sheffield, weren't in action yesterday but Kyle Howarth was riding for Scunthorpe, Lasse Bjerre was riding for Peterborough, as was Robert Branford, whilst Branford and Josh Grajczonek spent the weekend on opposite sides riding for Rye House and Somerset.

 

The sport needs to attract newcomers and retain its long standing followers. There is no chance of doing either whilst the current position continues. Speedway is essentially a team sport and people need to feel that they belong to a team and the team belongs to them.

 

None of the other leagues in Europe seems to do this and the British promoters are always looking for the easy way out. They make team changes and put riders out of work, then cry that there are not enough riders to go round.

 

Riders need to ride for one team only. If that means that some of them have to go part time, then so be it. I'm not sure how they can earn enough to be full time, riding for just seven and a half months out of the year in front of 400 or so paying customers anyway. Going back a few years, most riders had jobs and only the top men were full time riders, but now, with the doubling up scenario, a five point Second Division man, riding for two or more clubs can be a full time rider.

 

This would help riders to ride at the correct level. Craig Cook, Danny King, Rory Schlein, Josh Grajczonek, Robert Lambert etc. should not be riding in the Premier League. Similarly, Matt Williamson (a seven point man with Workington this season), Danny Ayres, Mitchell Davey etc. should not be riding in the National League.

 

The not enough riders to go round argument does not hold water. The same was said in 1960 when the Provincial league was formed and in 1968 when the Second Division was introduced. Make team places available and the riders will be found - from the junior leagues, from grass track, out of retirement and from some of the emerging countries in Europe to fill the places.

[The White Knight]

I think the main words to come out of this thread are integrity, credibility and circus.

 

At the moment the sport has none of the first two words and the third is an accurate description of where things are at the moment.

 

Just looking at yesterday's fixtures and the Ipswich team at Scunthorpe contained Danny King (also rides for Leicester), Rory Schlein (also rides for Wolves), Justin Sedgmen (also rides for Belle Vue), Kyle Newman (also rides for Poole), Cameron Heeps (also rides for Somerset), Nathan Greaves (also rides for Wolves) and Connor Mountain (also rides for Mildenhall). That's a compete team of riders who double up for other clubs.

 

My own 'team', Sheffield, weren't in action yesterday but Kyle Howarth was riding for Scunthorpe, Lasse Bjerre was riding for Peterborough, as was Robert Branford, whilst Branford and Josh Grajczonek spent the weekend on opposite sides riding for Rye House and Somerset.

 

The sport needs to attract newcomers and retain its long standing followers. There is no chance of doing either whilst the current position continues. Speedway is essentially a team sport and people need to feel that they belong to a team and the team belongs to them.

 

None of the other leagues in Europe seems to do this and the British promoters are always looking for the easy way out. They make team changes and put riders out of work, then cry that there are not enough riders to go round.

 

Riders need to ride for one team only. If that means that some of them have to go part time, then so be it. I'm not sure how they can earn enough to be full time, riding for just seven and a half months out of the year in front of 400 or so paying customers anyway. Going back a few years, most riders had jobs and only the top men were full time riders, but now, with the doubling up scenario, a five point Second Division man, riding for two or more clubs can be a full time rider.

 

This would help riders to ride at the correct level. Craig Cook, Danny King, Rory Schlein, Josh Grajczonek, Robert Lambert etc. should not be riding in the Premier League. Similarly, Matt Williamson (a seven point man with Workington this season), Danny Ayres, Mitchell Davey etc. should not be riding in the National League.

 

The not enough riders to go round argument does not hold water. The same was said in 1960 when the Provincial league was formed and in 1968 when the Second Division was introduced. Make team places available and the riders will be found - from the junior leagues, from grass track, out of retirement and from some of the emerging countries in Europe to fill the places.

A very well thought out and argued Post tigerowl - I agree with every word.

 

The only reason for the highlighted piece is that it shows that I, and one or two others one here are not alone.

 

Thank you.

[Trees]

I thought Swedish riders can race for teams in their two leagues?

[tellboy]

I thought Swedish riders can race for teams in their two leagues?

They did,i assume they still do.

[Trees]

I don't read how much of a joke their leagues are though ....

[waiheke1]

I don't read how much of a joke their leagues are though ....

Perhaps because they have designated race nights to avoid "doubling up" being an issue?

[tigerowl]

It seems very limited in Sweden. Anyway, there's a thread devoted to the subject on SSF.

[orion]

There is no need for guest riders and missing riders should have to be replaced by up and coming NL riders. Nothing wrong with re-declarations though.

That would bring the crowds in ...Jason Doyle replaced by a junior ...why do people on these topics give zero thought to the money side of the sport ....it's the same old thing no one likes guests but for years and years no one come up with anything workable or better to replaced them .

[moxey63]

That would bring the crowds in ...Jason Doyle replaced by a junior ...why do people on these topics give zero thought to the money side of the sport ....it's the same old thing no one likes guests but for years and years no one come up with anything workable or better to replaced them .

 

 

Don't let the public know he's being replaced by a junior... until they've paid their dosh and have taken their seats.

[waiheke1]

That would bring the crowds in ...Jason Doyle replaced by a junior ...why do people on these topics give zero thought to the money side of the sport ....it's the same old thing no one likes guests but for years and years no one come up with anything workable or better to replaced them .

There is no viable alternative to cover missing number ones.Rr for other hl is fine (or guest if more than 1 misding). Fixed race nights (2 nights EL, rest for PL) would remove the guest for DU issue. Missing 2nd string/reserve should be covered by designated number 8 or local junior.

Don't see a viable way to eliminate guests, but they certainly could be minimised.

Remember back in the 80s of both sides were misding a number one they would agree to replace with a local junior. Today people would know in advance and attendances would be hit hard.