Is There A Need For Guest Riders?

[moxey63]

A sport that was once primarily a team game has been positioned to a place of just a bunch of individuals getting a pay day.

 

That comment from Mike BV sums it up for me.

 

 

 

 

Matt... it was I who stated that... but I don't mind Mike BV guesting for me this time!

 

For someone like you who has committed so much work into trying to retrace speedway's past, your views need taking on board. Frigbo has also done a website, I believe, retracing speedway past... and then there's Brian Collins's Test Match site. All have been turned right off by the sport recently. I have also pieced together several compilations about the glory years of speedway... but my passion for the sport today has also pulled off onto the centre green.

 

Someone has got to take control of it. It doesn't need re-branding. It doesn't need a special paint-your-face-night or some unknown group prancing away on the centre green. It just needs certain things trimming back into place.

 

And for those who want a go at me personally. Have a go about me "not going anymore because I have to pay to get in." Think about this for a moment.... we have all the satellite channels at home that can pick up speedway - EL, Swedish, Polish and GPs... and yet I haven't watched one fully or even sat there to watch a race in years. It has that much appeal to me.

 

I know there is some great racing. I know the sport still has that thrill factor. But I wouldn't mind it being boring sometimes... just give me back a sport akin to which I fell in love with. Newcomers may fall for the thrill factor... but will they stick around long enough once they see how it's run?

 

I feel I can't get excited about a great spectacle when it's only a short term thrill and there are so many underlying problems. Especially in the upper league, that a lot of the riders spread themselves too thinly is also a big turn off.

 

They can't kid a kidder... pretending to want to bleed for a club, then the very next day their blood is elsewhere.

Edited May 18, 2017 by moxey63

[frigbo]

A sport that was once primarily a team game has been positioned to a place of just a bunch of individuals getting a pay day.

 

That comment from Mike BV sums it up for me.

 

I posted about credibility in the rising crowds thread and when fans of 40 years+ are deserting the already deserted terraces, then you know the sport is in trouble.

 

The sport is being run so that a bunch of pretty mediocre riders can ride every night of the week and not be bothered who's colours they are riding in while less and less people turn up to watch and newcomers quickly think 'what the hell is going on here, Joe Bloggs, our number one rider, has just helped our rivals destroy our league position'.

 

The lack of riders argument is a self fulfilling prophecy. Stop giving chances to youngsters and they will pack it in.

Nutshell

[highside]

A guest should only be used for injuries ,not when a rider is riding elsewhere .

[tigerowl]

Matt... it was I who stated that... but I don't mind Mike BV guesting for me this time!

 

 

Sorry about that!!!

[mikebv]

Matt... it was I who stated that... but I don't mind Mike BV guesting for me this time!

 

 

Sorry about that!!!

 

Sounded far too profound for me....😂😀 Edited May 18, 2017 by mikebv

[daveallan81]

In 111 official matches this season there have been 80 guests and 51 uses of R/R. Unattached juniors are not included in the guest figure.

 

Only 30 matches have gone ahead with both teams tracking their full 1-7.

 

41 riders are doubling-up with 5 of those trebling-up. These figures don't include changes made after the 12th May greensheets. Once recent switches are incorporated the sport will effectively be running 30 teams with 23 teams' worth of riders.

[mikebv]

In 111 official matches this season there have been 80 guests and 51 uses of R/R. Unattached juniors are not included in the guest figure.

 

Only 30 matches have gone ahead with both teams tracking their full 1-7.

 

41 riders are doubling-up with 5 of those trebling-up. These figures don't include changes made after the 12th May greensheets. Once recent switches are incorporated the sport will effectively be running 30 teams with 23 teams' worth of riders.

Fine Work...

 

So to summarise....

 

A great Sport, but ran in this Country without anywhere near the required credibility to be ever taken seriously or to be successful...

Edited May 18, 2017 by mikebv

[Fromafar]

The Promoters are still wondering where the crowds have gone.

[AlanF]

I think that people involved (promoters, riders, fans) have to come to a consensus as to what they want speedway to be and where it goes from here. There are just so many things just on this board that are totally contradictory.

 

1. Everybody complains about lack of continuity and with so many team changes, fans cannot identify with the riders. However, just about every match thread contains a discussion on who the losing team need to replace before their next meeting.
2. Most people seem to agree that teams can only pay what they can afford. However, when riders choose not to accept what is on offer, lots of people complaining because the leagues are too watered down.
3. Comments that riders have to accept that they may have to get outside work to supplement their speedway earnings. However, lots of complaints when a National League rider has to miss a meeting because of work.
4. Lots of posts stating that the most important thing is entertainment and good racing, even if we lose. However, go on a losing streak and the crowd drops and changes are demanded (point 1).
5. Many complaints about the use of guests and teams should be forced to use an NL rider. However, whenever this happens, tons of complaints about it being unfair and not good value for money for the fans,
6. Most agree that doubling up is out of hand. However, if it is restricted and riders earnings are reduced, expect a whole bunch of complaints about points 2 and 3 above.

 

I don't have the answers, but I am curious as to what a modern day promoter is supposed to do to keep supporters happy. I accept that they have played a large role in creating the current situation, so not defending them. I do believe that if rampant doubling up is necessary then the leagues have to operate on exclusive nights. Fixture planning becomes meanings when you have teams (e.g. Leicester) having already changed 4 of their original team, and all 4 of them are doubling up.

[moxey63]

I think that people involved (promoters, riders, fans) have to come to a consensus as to what they want speedway to be and where it goes from here. There are just so many things just on this board that are totally contradictory.

 

1. Everybody complains about lack of continuity and with so many team changes, fans cannot identify with the riders. However, just about every match thread contains a discussion on who the losing team need to replace before their next meeting.
2. Most people seem to agree that teams can only pay what they can afford. However, when riders choose not to accept what is on offer, lots of people complaining because the leagues are too watered down.
3. Comments that riders have to accept that they may have to get outside work to supplement their speedway earnings. However, lots of complaints when a National League rider has to miss a meeting because of work.
4. Lots of posts stating that the most important thing is entertainment and good racing, even if we lose. However, go on a losing streak and the crowd drops and changes are demanded (point 1).
5. Many complaints about the use of guests and teams should be forced to use an NL rider. However, whenever this happens, tons of complaints about it being unfair and not good value for money for the fans,
6. Most agree that doubling up is out of hand. However, if it is restricted and riders earnings are reduced, expect a whole bunch of complaints about points 2 and 3 above.

 

I don't have the answers, but I am curious as to what a modern day promoter is supposed to do to keep supporters happy. I accept that they have played a large role in creating the current situation, so not defending them. I do believe that if rampant doubling up is necessary then the leagues have to operate on exclusive nights. Fixture planning becomes meanings when you have teams (e.g. Leicester) having already changed 4 of their original team, and all 4 of them are doubling up.

 

Some good points.

[The White Knight]

Guest riders are a 'necessary evil' only because we are brain washed into thinking so...

 

It is the easy, lazy option, rather than working the team strength system into being fit for purpose.

 

No Guests in Sweden and Poland? Not all Superstars either. So why?

 

Because they race on the same night the vast proportion of the time so riders cannot be in two places at once..

 

Too easy over here as riders always available to step in...

 

Denmark run five man teams using mainly Danish riders as enough of the required level riders are not available without paying foreigners to go over...

 

Danish crowds are most similar I would say to Britain of the 'big four' League countries. So maybe this should be a template to be adapted..

 

One thing is for sure. Scott Nicholls helping Wolves into the play offs last year when they beat Poole and then his own team getting gubbed by Wolves six weeks later in the Final or Troy Batchelor starring for Poole a few years ago, before watching his Swindon team get hammered in the final by the Pirates, can never, ever, be seen as credible in anyway shape or form....

 

And if a professional team sports competition isn't credible then simply, why pay money to go and watch it?

EXACTLY!!!

 

Unfortunately these days Speedway and Credibility simply do not go together.

 

I have supported Speedway since 1964 which is a total of 53 years. Now I do not attend - basically because of the 'Double Points' Rule. Doubling and Trebling up are also Rules that destroy the credibility of the once wonderful Sport of Speedway.

 

It has already been mentioned regarding your relationship with your Team - that went out of the window years ago. We knew our Riders (they were 'our' Riders), their link with their Supporters was an important part of going to the Speedway. Riders became personal friends. Nowadays the Riders are so busy that they are gone, sometimes, before the Meeting has actually ended - I have attended one such Meeting.

 

Credibility is a big thing with people nowadays - they don't like being conned.

 

Unfortunately I do not know what the future holds for Speedway but I do wonder at times what will happen when all of us 'older' Supporters die off.

[sharpandroid]

Guest riders in a team sport where the guests are on the opposing side in other meetings is an absolutely mind boggling idea.

Stupidity of the highest order.

A very good reason not to attend a local "team" event when a part of the "team" may be riding against you next week.

Edited May 18, 2017 by sharpandroid

[moxey63]

Our kid, who I introduced to the sport in 1980, told me the other night that he felt the system was a strange one back in his first season, when PC and Mort missed numerous matches for our club, Belle Vue. It dawned on him quickly, as a 12 year-old, that it wasn't right seeing the likes of Dennis Sigalos, who he knew was a Hull rider, coming to the tapes in a Belle Vue bib.

 

But to many it was easy to handle back then. But with half as many teams now, I don't know, but there seems twice as many guests. Surely less clubs should mean more riders. Or have the lower leagues not produced the men to fill the spots in the top flight? In the 80s, wasn't there the "Old Hands" rules, in which someone who had ridden so many times as a stand-in rider couldn't do it more than a set number of times?

 

Has the attitude of allowing things to pass got us into this state?

Edited May 19, 2017 by moxey63

[ch958]

it isn't an easy thing to solve tbh but with the introduction of credible promotion and relegation it HAS to be dealt with to go forward

[Fromafar]

They have completely lost the plot on Double up/double down,missing riders and riders riding in 3 leagues ,they can't invent enough rules to cover it satisfactorily .

[IronScorpion]

mikebv has come up with some good ideas which work in other leagues, so we must try to adapt some in our leagues.

 

 

I am an advocate of trying to have 2 fixed nights for the Premiership as it worked before when Sky were in town for the old EL to race on Mondays & Wednesdays. The Championship then can ride on other nights minimising the use of guests. This is difficult due to teams not owning arenas but renting.

 

5 man & 6 man teams work abroad so could be tried here as not enough riders to go round if doubling up/down still to be used.

 

If riders are unavailable then use the IRR facility where 1 rider above & any rider below can take their rides. A no8 to be named in case of further injuries during a meeting where he takes the reserves rides if a reserve will take his maximum of 7 rides.

 

If 2 riders missing then a "guest" to be used who is not in a declared team in the subsequent league. Unattached or riders coming back from injury could then get rides.

[sharpandroid]

Good example, Kyle Howarth riding EWR today for Scorpions, kicked their arses last week, best buddies this week, no thanks i'll stay at home.

Edited May 21, 2017 by sharpandroid

[moxey63]

Good example, Kyle Howarth riding EWR today for Scorpions, kicked their arses last week, best buddies this week, no thanks i'll stay at home.

 

I was talking about this 10 years ago. Everyone back then discredited me... but the free-for-all has worsened since and will soil speedway further in the years ahead if it isn't curtailed. It only takes that moment to hit home, where someone is riding for a team and against them shortly after. Why are they allowing this to happen?

[Trees]

Nothing wrong with guest riders, I want a full strength team to represent my club each time they race. Yes, sometimes r/r is OK but not always, depending on who is missing.

[mikebv]

Nothing wrong with guest riders, I want a full strength team to represent my club each time they race. Yes, sometimes r/r is OK but not always, depending on who is missing.

Unfortunately if you want the Leagues to have any credibilty, then EVERYTHING is wrong with guest riders. ..

 

It's supposedly a National Title in a Professional sport thats being rode for...

 

To have any kudos to the title of 'Champion' then there has to be integrity and credibility. And from a fans perspective if no-one cares who wins a National Title in any sport, then why bother attending? In fact why bother holding the Championships in the first place?

 

Bringing in 'ringers' to replace lesser competitor's isn't even allowed in my lads U14 football league as photo id's have been used this season which get checked by the ref before each game..

 

Yet in Speedway you can bring in a 'track expert' to replace your missing rider depending on where you are racing..

 

What happened (and was widely accepted) even just ten years ago is no longer viable in the modern world of instant global information...

 

Years ago, you found out that your team, or the opponents, were missing their best riders so had guests when you got into the stadium. Nowadays you have all the team details a click of a button away, from the day before right up until the minute tapes are up..

 

In other words, plenty of time for the fans to decide whether the meeting has enough integrity or credibility for them to attend...

 

Having a reduced number of team places, eight team Leagues, a fit for purpose RR operating model and a well planned fixture list would go a long, long way in eradicating the need for to 'borrow' guests from your competitors who are also trying to win the same competition..

 

No integrity? No credibilty? No kudos in winning a National title?

 

Then let's be realistic and honest...

 

Why actually bother running it as a team sport?

Edited May 21, 2017 by mikebv