News For Twk

[Humphrey Appleby]

I have read John Berry's excellent 'Confessions' Books and I admire his honesty, which may, in the end have supported Humphrey's view about him falling out with people. It should be said that he may not have done though.

He approached me quite some years ago for some reference information, around the time he was thinking about writing his first book. After that we interacted for some years, until one day I received an abrupt and close to abusive email. To this day, I've no idea what prompted it as it was certainly nothing I'd said to or about him, although it seems to have been a familiar pattern from what others have told me, plus what you can read in his books.

 

This does not change the fact that he had some very good ideas about how to run speedway, and in fact sport in general. Views that I happen to mostly agree with, but it's one thing to believe in a certain way of doing things, but another to be able to persuade everyone over to your viewpoint and then keep them convinced. And that isn't going to happen if you're falling out with your constituents over trivial things.

 

I still often wonder how British Speedway would have fared had he (John Berry) taken the job on.

 

I did ask him whether he thought he could turn British speedway around (and bear in mind this was over a decade ago), but I think he felt it was on an irrevocable decline regardless of what was done. Maybe had things been done differently in the 1980s, but of course he had the sense to get out of the business then. Edited April 24, 2017 by Humphrey Appleby

[The White Knight]

He approached me quite some years ago for some reference information, around the time he was thinking about writing his first book. After that we interacted for some years, until one day I received an abrupt and close to abusive email. To this day, I've no idea what prompted it as it was certainly nothing I'd said to or about him, although it seems to have been a familiar pattern from what others have told me, plus what you can read in his books.

 

This does not change the fact that he had some very good ideas about how to run speedway, and in fact sport in general. Views that I happen to mostly agree with, but it's one thing to believe in a certain way of doing things, but another to be able to persuade everyone over to your viewpoint and then keep them convinced.

 

 

I did ask him whether he thought he could turn British speedway around (and bear in mind this was over a decade ago), but I think he felt it was on an irrevocable decline regardless of what was done. Maybe had things been done differently in the 1980s, but of course he had the sense to get out of the business then.

Excellent Post Humphrey. :approve:

[steve roberts]

It certainly would have been a rip roaring ride Sidney. He did a great job at Ipswich and I am sure he would have done a great job for British Speedway. Sadly it wasn't to be and I, for one, believe that we are suffering today because of lack of foresight all those years ago.

 

I have read John Berry's excellent 'Confessions' Books and I admire his honesty, which may, in the end have supported Humphrey's view about him falling out with people. It should be said that he may not have done though.

 

I still often wonder how British Speedway would have fared had he (John Berry) taken the job on.

 

 

*I can highly recommend John Berry's Books to anybody interested in the History of British Speedway. Not sure if they are still available - but I got mine directly from 'BackTrack' if I remember correctly.

Have to agree...his books and comments in the 'Backtrack' Magazine were always worth reading. Sometimes controversial but personally I feel he was up there with the best!

WK go back to the likes of M.Parker( a real tough guy to deal with) and the likes of Fearman,Mawdesley!Silver,Crane/Littlechild, Boothroyd as examples real good speedway people.Even now there are great people still in the game who dont take much out but give alot.Berry for me was a modern man evolved and took no crap if he had been the supremo it would of been an interesting ride,

Yes all genuine promoters who knew the sport inside out.

He approached me quite some years ago for some reference information, around the time he was thinking about writing his first book. After that we interacted for some years, until one day I received an abrupt and close to abusive email. To this day, I've no idea what prompted it as it was certainly nothing I'd said to or about him, although it seems to have been a familiar pattern from what others have told me, plus what you can read in his books.

 

This does not change the fact that he had some very good ideas about how to run speedway, and in fact sport in general. Views that I happen to mostly agree with, but it's one thing to believe in a certain way of doing things, but another to be able to persuade everyone over to your viewpoint and then keep them convinced. And that isn't going to happen if you're falling out with your constituents over trivial things.

 

I did ask him whether he thought he could turn British speedway around (and bear in mind this was over a decade ago), but I think he felt it was on an irrevocable decline regardless of what was done. Maybe had things been done differently in the 1980s, but of course he had the sense to get out of the business then.

Interesting comments Humph!

Remember, with relish, the two matches when Oxford came from eight points down with four heats to go if I recall (perhaps Rob can clarify) during the 1984 season at both Wimbledon and King's Lynn (much to Martin Rogers' disgust!) On both occasions 'The Cheetahs' claimed three 5-1's in the last four heats using tactical moves and riders raising their game to achieve narrow wins! Brilliant stuff!

 

Of course it happened against us on occasions when 'we wuz robbed' during last heat deciders but I remember reading ivan Mauger's book when he commented how satisfying it was to pull a match out of the bag with a last heat 5-1!

Edited April 24, 2017 by steve roberts

[orion]

To quote John Berry (who I admired and corresponded with on a couple of occasions) from his most excellent book 'More Confessions'

 

"...the tactical substitution rule was there to keep interest in a match when it was becoming one-sided. It would have been pointless had it not allowed a team the opportunity to actually get back into a winning position but merely closed the gap a little...I find the current replacement (c2006) for the tactical substitute to be a poor alternative. I am not one of those "purists" who screamed about Mickey Mouse aspect of the new rule. After All, the Tac.Sub. rule itself was hardly 'equitable'. No, I just think the new rule is transparently artificial as to look silly"

Well John Berry was wrong ...the stats don't tell lies ...the old rule changed more results than the new one ever did ....the bottom line is that old speedway fan wants old speedway rule back ....don't go on about it being fairer etc as that is clearly never been the case ,

Edited April 24, 2017 by orion

[The White Knight]

Well John Berry was wrong ...the stats don't tell lies ...the old rule changed more results than the new one ever did ....the bottom line is that old speedway fan wants old speedway rule back ....don't go on about it being fairer etc as that is clearly never been the case ,

The Gospel according to the Forum Sage. :rofl: :rofl:

[steve roberts]

Well John Berry was wrong ...the stats don't tell lies ...the old rule changed more results than the new one ever did ....the bottom line is that old speedway fan wants old speedway rule back ....don't go on about it being fairer etc as that is clearly never been the case ,

...never said I did however I prefer to take on board what John Berry had to say than your good self!

[BWitcher]

...never said I did however I prefer to take on board what John Berry had to say than your good self!

 

Typical speedway fan.

 

Try engaging your brain and actually thinking for yourself instead of blindly believing what someone else has said.

[steve roberts]

 

Except it did just that.. many times.

 

six down.. two races to go.. Hancock and Hamill double tac sub... Hancock and Hamill heat 15. Match won. As an example.

 

Any form of tac rule can be deemed as 'silly', its clearly giving an advantage to one side over the other.

 

For what it's worth, I much preferred the old tac sub system but I don't ever bring fairness or contrived results into it which some consistently do when attacking the current system.

...that scenario wouldn't have taken place under the tried and tested 13 heat formula. In fact subsequent heat formulae have varied considerably since with both fifteen and sixteen adaptations over the intervening years (The National League operated a 16 heat formula during the late seventies early eighties).

 

During the late 80's/early 90's (?) heat 14 was often a reserve only heat prior to the last nominated 'top scores race'.

 

In fact I do recall one season at least whereby the last three (?) heats were all nominated thereby negating that scenario.

 

Typical speedway fan.

 

Try engaging your brain and actually thinking for yourself instead of blindly believing what someone else has said.

...I recall having the misfortune of standing next to a Wolves fan at Monmore Green who continually barked at all those surrounding him if they dared to disagree or contradict him. Sound familiar?

Edited April 24, 2017 by steve roberts

[orion]

...never said I did however I prefer to take on board what John Berry had to say than your good self!

Why ? that stats show John Berry was clearly wrong ..you may not like it but the old rule changed more results that the new rule ...they are the facts .

The Gospel according to the Forum Sage. :rofl: :rofl:

Here comes the name calling and the child like smiles ...you can set your clock by it .

Edited April 24, 2017 by orion

[waiheke1]

I think people are mis reading John Berrys statement. I think he is acknowledging that it was not fair, and that it DID help teams close the gap better than the current system. I think he's like many of us, he preferred the old system but NOT because it was more "fair."

[steve roberts]

Why ? that stats show John Berry was clearly wrong ..you may not like it but the old rule changed more results that the new rule ...they are the facts .

Here comes the name calling and the child like smiles ...you can set your clock by it .

But what are the facts? As I have indicated heat formulae have altered over the years so it's very difficult, if impossible, to compare like with like as the examples I gave in an earlier post indicated.

I think people are mis reading John Berrys statement. I think he is acknowledging that it was not fair, and that it DID help teams close the gap better than the current system. I think he's like many of us, he preferred the old system but NOT because it was more "fair."

Personally I'm not sure why people have an issue with tactical moves in sport...in football a defender maybe replaced by an attacker in the hope of pulling a goal back or vice versa. I'm sure that tactical ploys are also active in other sports. I just didn't like the 'double points' scenario later adopted in speedway...wasn't the system abused during a Speedway World Cup Final or something? I can't recall the facts (after my time!).

Edited April 24, 2017 by steve roberts

[daveallan81]

But what are the facts? As I have indicated heat formulae have altered over the years so it's very difficult, if impossible, to compare like with like.

 

I ran figures for tactical substitutes in a thread ages ago. I didn't keep the worksheet and I can't be bothered raking around to find what I posted, but essentially under the old 13 heat formula use of one or more tactical substitutes resulted in more turnarounds than the current tactical ride set up. I think the TS success rate was around 10% compared to just over 4% for the single TR in 2016. There have been 22 TR rides taken so far in 2017, none have resulted in victories.

[BluPanther]

He approached me quite some years ago for some reference information, around the time he was thinking about writing his first book. After that we interacted for some years, until one day I received an abrupt and close to abusive email. To this day, I've no idea what prompted it as it was certainly nothing I'd said to or about him, although it seems to have been a familiar pattern from what others have told me, plus what you can read in his books.

 

This does not change the fact that he had some very good ideas about how to run speedway, and in fact sport in general. Views that I happen to mostly agree with, but it's one thing to believe in a certain way of doing things, but another to be able to persuade everyone over to your viewpoint and then keep them convinced. And that isn't going to happen if you're falling out with your constituents over trivial things.

 

I did ask him whether he thought he could turn British speedway around (and bear in mind this was over a decade ago), but I think he felt it was on an irrevocable decline regardless of what was done. Maybe had things been done differently in the 1980s, but of course he had the sense to get out of the business then.

Absolutely, you are not alone on that score Humphrey. John was a golfing buddy for nearly two years, but i was suddenly thrown aside and rarely spoken too again with no explanation. Falling out with people who had never wronged him was quite common in my experience. Very strange man at times...

[steve roberts]

 

I ran figures for tactical substitutes in a thread ages ago. I didn't keep the worksheet and I can't be bothered raking around to find what I posted, but essentially under the old 13 heat formula use of one or more tactical substitutes resulted in more turnarounds than the current tactical ride set up. I think the TS success rate was around 10% compared to just over 4% for the single TR in 2016. There have been 22 TR rides taken so far in 2017, none have resulted in victories.

Thanks for that. I respect your findings regarding recent years however I have no working knowledge or understanding of current speedway regulations and have stated all along that my views and opinions were based on my experiences of attending speedway up until 2003.

 

Interesting all the same.

[BWitcher]

 

...I recall having the misfortune of standing next to a Wolves fan at Monmore Green who continually barked at all those surrounding him if they dared to disagree or contradict him. Sound familiar?

 

There isn't anything to disagree on. You are wrong. John Berry was wrong.

 

Daveallan above who has all the statistics has confirmed you are wrong.

 

Now, you can either act like an adult, learn something and move on, or you can continue acting like an internet troll.

 

Personally I'm not sure why people have an issue with tactical moves in sport...in football a defender maybe replaced by an attacker in the hope of pulling a goal back or vice versa. I'm sure that tactical ploys are also active in other sports. I just didn't like the 'double points' scenario later adopted in speedway...wasn't the system abused during a Speedway World Cup Final or something? I can't recall the facts (after my time!).

 

There is absolutely no comparison between a substitution in football and a 'tactical substitution' in speedway. It beggars belief that anyone can seriously compare the two.

 

However, if you really want to go down that route and claim they are similar, your argument holds no water anyway as both teams can make subs in football.. not just the team losing.

 

I do agree with you in preferring the old system to double points so there is common ground.

[steve roberts]

 

There isn't anything to disagree on. You are wrong. John Berry was wrong.

 

Daveallan above who has all the statistics has confirmed you are wrong.

 

Now, you can either act like an adult, learn something and move on, or you can continue acting like an internet troll.

I suggest you read my comment above whereby I respected Davealian's findings but that was never my issue and never doubted that the Tactical Substitute Regulation was flawless in whatever guise as I have quite clearly stated in my previous posts on the subject...as for internet troll?

 

There isn't anything to disagree on. You are wrong. John Berry was wrong.

 

Daveallan above who has all the statistics has confirmed you are wrong.

 

Now, you can either act like an adult, learn something and move on, or you can continue acting like an internet troll.

 

There is absolutely no comparison between a substitution in football and a 'tactical substitution' in speedway. It beggars belief that anyone can seriously compare the two.

 

However, if you really want to go down that route and claim they are similar, your argument holds no water anyway as both teams can make subs in football.. not just the team losing.

 

I do agree with you in preferring the old system to double points so there is common ground.

Then we'll leave it at that then. Time to move on I think.

Edited April 24, 2017 by steve roberts

[daveallan81]

Thanks for that. I respect your findings regarding recent years however I have no working knowledge or understanding of current speedway regulations and have stated all along that my views and opinions were based on my experiences of attending speedway up until 2003.

 

Interesting all the same.

 

I have found my original post buried in a thread entitled "Anyone Else Considering Walking Away From Speedway?" from September 2016.

 

" These figures include all EL & PL matches from 2014, 2015 and this season up to Sunday past, the 18th.

Total matches: 851

Teams using TR: 519 (60.98% of matches saw at least one TR)

Resulting in a win: 19 (3.66%)

A draw: 1 (0.19%)

A loss: 499 (96.15%)

I've used 1977 & 78 for the TS comparison. Note that TS rides taken by reserves are NOT included, only rides by a member of the 1-5 have been counted. It's not always possible to pinpoint a reserve taking a TS so best to exclude them for a bit more accuracy.

Total matches: 1406

Teams using TS: 1124 (79.94% of matches saw at least one TS)

Resulting in a win: 41 (3.65%)

A draw: 25 (2.22%)

A loss: 1058 (94.13%) "

Complete original post here http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=82765&page=8&do=findComment&comment=2851526

Apologies for my inaccurate recollections earlier.

[The White Knight]

But what are the facts? As I have indicated heat formulae have altered over the years so it's very difficult, if impossible, to compare like with like as the examples I gave in an earlier post indicated.

Personally I'm not sure why people have an issue with tactical moves in sport...in football a defender maybe replaced by an attacker in the hope of pulling a goal back or vice versa. I'm sure that tactical ploys are also active in other sports. I just didn't like the 'double points' scenario later adopted in speedway...wasn't the system abused during a Speedway World Cup Final or something? I can't recall the facts (after my time!).

Jason Crump and Nicki Pedersen fighting for last place so they could play their 'Joker' ( :rofl: :rofl: ) if I remember correctly. I could be wrong about the reason - but it was definitely those two Riders and it was in the World Cup.

 

Pathetic really.

[orion]

And riders dropping points so there team could go to six behind was common place under the old rules .its amazing old fans thought that was ok but when it happened in the world cup they were up in arms about it ..another case of memory loss

[steve roberts]

 

 

I have found my original post buried in a thread entitled "Anyone Else Considering Walking Away From Speedway?" from September 2016.

 

" These figures include all EL & PL matches from 2014, 2015 and this season up to Sunday past, the 18th.

Total matches: 851

Teams using TR: 519 (60.98% of matches saw at least one TR)

Resulting in a win: 19 (3.66%)

A draw: 1 (0.19%)

A loss: 499 (96.15%)

I've used 1977 & 78 for the TS comparison. Note that TS rides taken by reserves are NOT included, only rides by a member of the 1-5 have been counted. It's not always possible to pinpoint a reserve taking a TS so best to exclude them for a bit more accuracy.

Total matches: 1406

Teams using TS: 1124 (79.94% of matches saw at least one TS)

Resulting in a win: 41 (3.65%)

A draw: 25 (2.22%)

A loss: 1058 (94.13%) "

Complete original post here http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=82765&page=8&do=findComment&comment=2851526

Apologies for my inaccurate recollections earlier.

 

Fascinating piece of work...thanks for the information.

Jason Crump and Nicki Pedersen fighting for last place so they could play their 'Joker' ( :rofl: :rofl: ) if I remember correctly. I could be wrong about the reason - but it was definitely those two Riders and it was in the World Cup.

 

Pathetic really.

Thanks...I remember reading something at the time.