News For Twk

[BWitcher]

So we've established that fairness and contriving close results aren't an issue...

[ruffdiamond]

Any time TWK Your poor nose is getting so short, like mine lol

...

he maybe has to keep shortening it,,, to stop it from growing

[steve roberts]

As a matter of interest does anyone remember how the R/R/R was administered during the seasons of 1976 & 77?

 

I recall Gordon Kennett being able to take up to two rides for the missing Dag Lovaas but towards the back end of the 1977 season wasn't able to take any. I know that it was obviously based on averages and recall Henny Kroeze being the first rider to achieve a seven ride maximum when Halifax were utilising the facility in 1976 (?)

 

It was always very confusing I seem to remember.

Edited April 20, 2017 by steve roberts

[BWitcher]

A contrived/fiddled last Heat decider.

 

What is sporting about that.

 

You tell us, you attended happily seeing such things for decades.

 

When they made it fairer, so we got less 'contrived/fiddling' last heat deciders, you decided you didn't like it.

[The White Knight]

 

You tell us, you attended happily seeing such things for decades.

 

When they made it fairer, so we got less 'contrived/fiddling' last heat deciders, you decided you didn't like it.

Sigh. :rolleyes:

 

I'm not going through all that again. :nono:

[BWitcher]

Sigh. :rolleyes:

 

I'm not going through all that again. :nono:

 

Truth hurts. It's not something you can escape, it's the reality.

 

Good to see you got a like from the other supporter of contrived results and unfairness, Steve Roberts.

[steve roberts]

To quote John Berry (who I admired and corresponded with on a couple of occasions) from his most excellent book 'More Confessions'

 

"...the tactical substitution rule was there to keep interest in a match when it was becoming one-sided. It would have been pointless had it not allowed a team the opportunity to actually get back into a winning position but merely closed the gap a little...I find the current replacement (c2006) for the tactical substitute to be a poor alternative. I am not one of those "purists" who screamed about Mickey Mouse aspect of the new rule. After All, the Tac.Sub. rule itself was hardly 'equitable'. No, I just think the new rule is transparently artificial as to look silly"

[Sidney the robin]

To quote John Berry (who I admired and corresponded with on a couple of occasions) from his most excellent book 'More Confessions'

 

"...the tactical substitution rule was there to keep interest in a match when it was becoming one-sided. It would have been pointless had it not allowed a team the opportunity to actually get back into a winning position but merely closed the gap a little...I find the current replacement (c2006) for the tactical substitute to be a poor alternative. I am not one of those "purists" who screamed about Mickey Mouse aspect of the new rule. After All, the Tac.Sub. rule itself was hardly 'equitable'. No, I just think the new rule is transparently artificial as to look silly"

John Berry was a man i admired greatly a real speedway man he for me should of been the supremo of British speedway it never happened british speedway would of prospered.The old tac rule never really bothered me as a young un it was a chance to see the opposing no 1 ride usually the heat 8- the 2/7/2/7 race.Speedway for me is an entertaiment good racing a must but these rules and averages trying to even teams up does not work not for me anyway.

[steve roberts]

John Berry was a man i admired greatly a real speedway man he for me should of been the supremo of British speedway it never happened british speedway would of prospered.The old tac rule never really bothered me as a young un it was a chance to see the opposing no 1 ride usually the heat 8- the 2/7/2/7 race.Speedway for me is an entertaiment good racing a must but these rules and averages trying to even teams up does not work not for me anyway.

Agree Sid! He would have been the right man for the job but when his name was put forward he did the sensible thing and backed off because he soon realised that he wouldn't get the necessary backing from the Promoters of the day to implement his recommendations...an opportunity lost in my view.

 

As regards the Tac.Sub. rule I do remember Exeter occasionally naming Ivan Mauger as number two at the County Ground to deflect any possible tactical moves by the opposition! That was the days when you could declare your 1-5 in any order and not based on average. Number Four was another that was used to that effect, especially when riding away, to give the team a strong last heat pairing. Both Exeter and Belle Vue (amongst others) used that tactic often.

Edited April 24, 2017 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin]

Sport is brutal pick your team at the start of the season and go with it no changes unless there are long/term injuries.This year as a example Poole will not win the league with the side they have but we all know they will make changes not good have faith in your original 1-7.

Agree Sid! He would have been the right man for the job but when his name was put forward he did the sensible thing and backed off because he soon realised that he wouldn't get the necessary backing from the Promoters of the day to implement his recommendations...an opportunity lost in my view.

 

As regards the Tac.Sub. rule I do remember Exeter occasionally naming Ivan Mauger as number two at the County Ground to deflect any possible tactical moves by the opposition! That was the days when you could declare your 1-5 in any order and not based on average. Number Four was another that was used to that effect, especially when riding away, to give the team a strong last heat pairing. Both Exeter and Belle Vue (amongst others) used that tactic often.

Berry Steve i think had the balls to make hard choices/changes for the better of the sport as a whole, but as you said he was knocking his head against a brick wall.A real shame that was a missed chance the Mauger quote is so right named him at 2 a real shrewd act at the time .My point is i did see brutal sport speedway a 50-28 drubbing thats life but some were really entertaining.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Agree Sid! He would have been the right man for the job but when his name was put forward he did the sensible thing and backed off because he soon realised that he wouldn't get the necessary backing from the Promoters of the day to implement his recommendations...an opportunity lost in my view.

John Berry was a very astute promoter and a deep thinker about speedway, but I think he would have made a poor supremo. Whilst that sort of position needs leadership and some toughness, the incumbent first-and-foremost needs to be diplomatic because it just won't work if you haven't got most of the promoters backing you.

 

You only have to look at all the fallings out with various people down the years, sometimes for the most trivial of reasons, to see that it probably wouldn't have lasted long. Very good promoter and undoubtedly many good ideas for how to run the sport, but unfortunately a supremo-type position needs a different skill set.

[BWitcher]

To quote John Berry (who I admired and corresponded with on a couple of occasions) from his most excellent book 'More Confessions'

 

"...the tactical substitution rule was there to keep interest in a match when it was becoming one-sided. It would have been pointless had it not allowed a team the opportunity to actually get back into a winning position but merely closed the gap a little..."

 

Except it did just that.. many times.

 

six down.. two races to go.. Hancock and Hamill double tac sub... Hancock and Hamill heat 15. Match won. As an example.

 

Any form of tac rule can be deemed as 'silly', its clearly giving an advantage to one side over the other.

 

For what it's worth, I much preferred the old tac sub system but I don't ever bring fairness or contrived results into it which some consistently do when attacking the current system.

[mikebv]

Any tac sub system being needed says everything about the standard of racing on offer..

 

No tac subs at the NSS on Friday, and if there had of been, it would have made little difference to the very good standard of racing..

 

Speedway has fifteen stand alone segments in a match. A huge opportunity to keep fans engaged as one follows the other relatively quickly..

 

Maybe Promoters should concentrate on getting these fifteen segments to deliver quality close racing rather than thinking up systems that only deliver a close scoreboard result...

[The White Knight]

Any tac sub system being needed says everything about the standard of racing on offer..

 

No tac subs at the NSS on Friday, and if there had of been, it would have made little difference to the very good standard of racing..

 

Speedway has fifteen stand alone segments in a match. A huge opportunity to keep fans engaged as one follows the other relatively quickly..

 

Maybe Promoters should concentrate on getting these fifteen segments to deliver quality close racing rather than thinking up systems that only deliver a close scoreboard result...

First rate Post mikebv.

 

Particularly the first sentence.

[Sidney the robin]

John Berry was a very astute promoter and a deep thinker about speedway, but I think he would have made a poor supremo. Whilst that sort of position needs leadership and some toughness, the incumbent first-and-foremost needs to be diplomatic because it just won't work if you haven't got most of the promoters backing you.

You only have to look at all the fallings out with various people down the years, sometimes for the most trivial of reasons, to see that it probably wouldn't have lasted long. Very good promoter and undoubtedly many good ideas for how to run the sport, but unfortunately a supremo-type position needs a different skill set.

I think HA you are way off the mark concerning Berry, him falling out with people showed he was not on the gravy train a yes man.He fell out with a few over the years but he held respect from most i cant think of anyone in my speedway lifetime who would of done a better job than him.

[The White Knight]

I think HA you are way off the mark concerning Berry, him falling out with people showed he was not on the gravy train a yes man.He fell out with a few over the years but he held respect from most i cant think of anyone in my speedway lifetime who would of done a better job than him.

I have to agree with you on that Sidney.

[Sidney the robin]

I have to agree with you on that Sidney.

WK go back to the likes of M.Parker( a real tough guy to deal with) and the likes of Fearman,Mawdesley!Silver,Crane/Littlechild, Boothroyd as examples real good speedway people.Even now there are great people still in the game who dont take much out but give alot.Berry for me was a modern man evolved and took no crap if he had been the supremo it would of been an interesting ride,

[BWitcher]

First rate Post mikebv.

 

Particularly the first sentence.

 

So, as the first sentence was

 

"Any tac sub system being needed says everything about the standard of racing on offer"

 

You deem that first rate.

 

One can only assume then the standard of racing now is better than it has been for 50 odd years as we have the least amount of tactical interference in a match and that back in the 'good old days' when tac subs were much more frequent and had a bigger impact, not to mention denying lesser riders the opportunity to race, that the racing was rubbish.

 

Or was perhaps the first sentence not 'first rate'?

[The White Knight]

WK go back to the likes of M.Parker( a real tough guy to deal with) and the likes of Fearman,Mawdesley!Silver,Crane/Littlechild, Boothroyd as examples real good speedway people.Even now there are great people still in the game who dont take much out but give alot.Berry for me was a modern man evolved and took no crap if he had been the supremo it would of been an interesting ride,

It certainly would have been a rip roaring ride Sidney. He did a great job at Ipswich and I am sure he would have done a great job for British Speedway. Sadly it wasn't to be and I, for one, believe that we are suffering today because of lack of foresight all those years ago.

 

I have read John Berry's excellent 'Confessions' Books and I admire his honesty, which may, in the end have supported Humphrey's view about him falling out with people. It should be said that he may not have done though.

 

I still often wonder how British Speedway would have fared had he (John Berry) taken the job on.

 

 

*I can highly recommend John Berry's Books to anybody interested in the History of British Speedway. Not sure if they are still available - but I got mine directly from 'BackTrack' if I remember correctly.

[Humphrey Appleby]

I think HA you are way off the mark concerning Berry, him falling out with people showed he was not on the gravy train a yes man.

You have to work with people in a collaborative organisation (which the BSPA ostensibly is) regardless of whether you think (or know) they're wrong. It's not a question of whether his views and methods were right, but how long he'd have kept the other promoters onside.

 

Not sure what you mean by being on the gravy train - there wasn't much gravy in speedway administration - then or now.

 

He fell out with a few over the years but he held respect from most i cant think of anyone in my speedway lifetime who would of done a better job than him.

And that is the tragedy.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Humphrey Appleby