The Goalposts Have Moved So...

[CookieIpswich]

This is why if it becomed one big league its restricted to 16 teams, how they choose the 16 is another question but I'd pick the 16 with the best facilities, now can anyone name them?

 

I am concerned about youngsters having 3 bikes plus van etc it's a joke

 

I've been involved in MMA and at british level the amateurs and professionals all have jobs, all pay for their training etc and some pros get about £200-£2000 a fight max but they don't compete 4 times a week

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

When I first began following speedway in 1953, at Birmingham, the riders had one bike each and the club provided a track spare. There was also a fully fitted workshop located within the stadium and the club employed a professional mechanic who looked after the bikes of all the Birmingham riders and kept the track spare in top condition.

 

Nothing at all wrong with a system like that and no reason at all why it shouldn't be re-introduced.

i said a similar sort of thing on my Facebook page a few weeks ago along with other ideas /thoughts etc , I got told I was being negative and I was seeing the sport through rose tinted glasses and that was the past etc ,on another thought I had about if teams or riders should pay for mechanics I got shot down well and truly by one of today's stars , I beginning to think it's a lost cause

[Halifaxtiger]

Non of the names you mention appear on the list I was referring to called '2017 Team Building Averages - Numerical'

 

http://www.speedwaygb.co/elteamissues16

 

which I believe only includes riders who have already ridden for a team in the top two leagues and could obviously be considered for a place in a team in a combined league.

 

Even if teams could only build from that list there are enough riders to form 18 teams in a combined league and the points limit would only need to drop by around 2 points to make it work. In any case it is inconceivable that no other overseas riders would become available, we've even seen an old retired rider tempted back for another go.

 

We don't NEED doubling up and when they fully implement my vision for the future and there's one big league (was it really the sky deal that stopped it happening this year?) it won't be an option anyway.

There are 150 names mentioned.

 

They include :

 

Iverson, Jonsson, Woffinden, Lindback, Zagar, Ulamek, Gjedde,Stead, Karlsson, Walasek, Fisher,Lyager, Skidmore,Bager,Boxall,Mear,Hummel, Karger,Lanham, Castagna,Holub, Sissis,Greenwood, Halsey.

 

GP riders, retired riders, some I haven't even heard of.

 

Draft in a few NL boys (although some are already in that list) and maybe a few newbies and you might just do it. That, however, depends on all of them fitting in and being willing to ride in the UK and, of course, none getting injured.

 

Very, very easy to point to numbers and say there are enough. Much, much harder to make sure that it works.

[stevebrum]

Non of the names you mention appear on the list I was referring to called '2017 Team Building Averages - Numerical'http://www.speedwaygb.co/elteamissues16

which I believe only includes riders who have already ridden for a team in the top two leagues and could obviously be considered for a place in a team in a combined league.

Even if teams could only build from that list there are enough riders to form 18 teams in a combined league and the points limit would only need to drop by around 2 points to make it work. In any case it is inconceivable that no other overseas riders would become available, we've even seen an old retired rider tempted back for another go.

We don't NEED doubling up and when they fully implement my vision for the future and there's one big league (was it really the sky deal that stopped it happening this year?) it won't be an option anyway.

The list you quoted has at least 36 riders who either have retired or chosen not to ride here including riders who are very much part time users of the top flight league.

We need doubling up riders to fill spots due to lack of quality riders wanting to ride here.

I will repeat, if it's that's easy to fill team spots with an abundance of riders why then do double up riders dominate both leagues??

It's very easy to quote a list and say this is the proof. A careful examination of the list shows up the flaw in the list itself.

God forbid one big league ever happens again you can take off several more big names who are unlikely to want to ride in it or clubs have the money or budget or points limit to include the likes of Holder, Doyle, Lindgren etc.

Even Less riders to choose from this list which is already outdated.

[brianbuck]

When the Provincial League was formed in 1960 everyone said at the time that there wouldn't be enough riders to staff 10 new teams, but as things turned out, none of the clubs had any problems in filling their sides. Accepted there were some very wide differentials in the strength of the clubs - Northern clubs tended to go for the riders who had been second halfers at Belle Vue or Bradford (and quite a few of them were in their mid 30's or even older) whilst Southern clubs went for many of the ex riders who had retired because the top league was too tough for them.

 

The bottom line though, was that the riders were there when needed.

[neil bv]

King Cook Masters shouldn't be doubling down

Correct me if I'm wrong someone but didn't the BSPA say that riders were only going to be allowed to double up/down for 2 seasons about 3 years ago?

[stevebrum]

Correct me if I'm wrong someone but didn't the BSPA say that riders were only going to be allowed to double up/down for 2 seasons about 3 years ago?

Yes I recall that too and thought it odd at the time as well!

[stevebrum]

Okay, so now its 36 riders who need to be removed from the list, HT only came up with 24 names, who are the other 12?

Anyway, based on the assumptions that no other riders will want to ride or come out of retirement and only including riders you class as eligible to be on the list and those that have already signed for a team, there are 9 riders short of the required 126.

By the way, I'm not necessarily agreeing with your claim that 36 riders aren't eligible to be on the list the bspa produced, I just can't be bothered to get into another of your mindless arguments, if that is okay with you?

So just imagine what would happen if doubling up wasn't allowed, where on earth would those extra 9 riders come from?

Do you think it even remotely possible that say Zagar (1) could be tempted to ride here (he has said he wants to) or how about Jonsson(2)? How about someone like Milik(3) or Madsen(4) or Thomsen(5). How about Lahti(6) or Woodward(7)? Let's really push the boat out and go for Ljung(8) or even really push the boat out and go for Bech(9) or Kildemand(10) or Jepsen Jensen(11). I'm trying to avoid poles but we even had a dodgy pole last season so there might be a couple of them who can come and mess us about(12,13?) What's Eklof(14) up to these days or Sundstrom(15) and that Aussie lad who's dad stubbed his toe just before the cup semi the other year(16)? I don't know if we really get desperate we could ask Bjarne(17) or Smoli(18) if they fancied a skid! There might even be one or two of those wonder kids that Poole normally sign on a ridiculously low assessed average that I've never heard of (19,20?)?

I know you can't work out an alternative to doubling up but when it isn't an option what happens next?

It isn't a mindless argument in the slightest. There are 36 riders who have either retired or are not riding here or in either league this season.

Feel free to name me your 24 and I will happily add the other 12.

 

Anyway to take it up a level I'm not saying that IF the leagues combine that those in authority won't come up with a suitable structure to ensure all teams that enter will have an ability to fill those places.

Like you say it isn't impossible that riders like Ulamek, Korneliussen, Walasek, even Bjarne might be tempted back or even riders who fancy more meetings in one big league.

 

I thought the whole idea was to water the structure down to make one big league? Surely then there is no way the likes of Kildemand, Smolinski, MJJ etc would A) want more meetings or the lower level teams would want the cost implications.

 

I can see the logic to those that argue that it's what our leagues need right now and it makes some sense if you are looking at it from cutting out the expense and preserving what we have. I can see it without having to agree with it.

But cutting out the expense means losing more riders (top end foreigners) and we need more not less to make it work.

For me there is no credibility to one big league and there is little chance that the next generation will progress to possibly represent us at the World table.

 

I keep going back to this list you mention, if it's that easy why don't the BSPA say no more doubling up and riders can only ride for one team and one league??? The answer is simple, neither league is viable to make a living for the vast majority of riders. I can see quite a few riders retiring due to being forced to earn less.

 

In principle it's ideal to have one rider one team in the UK, that would be ideal. But I fail to see how it can be implemented successfully or fairly.

[CUFC_Brummie]

Slow Sunday afternoon....

 

Belle Vue

M Zagar, S Worrall, M Palm Toft, J Jacobs, D Bewley, M Williamson, L Payne

 

Berwick

E Kennett, K Wolbert, K Doolan, C Vissing, L Carr, D Gappmaier, R Blackock

 

Edinburgh

J Thorsell, S Masters, R Schlein, E Riss, M Clegg, M Davey, J Pickering

 

Glasgow

M Fricke, A Summers, R Bach, T Kurtz, N Lunna, J Smith, M Davey

 

Ipswich

D King, B Barker, N Covatti, L Kerr, C Heeps, C Mountain, D Hume

 

Kings Lynn

N K Iversen, R Lambert, T Batchelor, C Wilkinson, K Huckenbeck, J Bailey, J Jenkins

 

Leicester

K Nilsson, A Lebedevs, P Hougaard, D Watt, M Riss, D Ayres, M Baseby

 

Newcastle

S Nicholls, R Lawson, M Kus, L Rose, A Morris, D Phillips, C Coles

 

Peterborough

J Kylmakorpi, K Bjerre, U Ostergaard, K Hansen, S Lambert, T Perry, T Bacon

 

Poole

C Holder, A Ellis, J Holder, K Newman, J Allen, J Shanes, B Wilson

 

Redcar

N Morris, R Worrall, D Bellego, C Wright, T Busch, R Hall, D Ritchings

 

Rye House

C Harris, L Lindgren, S Robson, J Sarjeant, R Branford, E Perks, L Bowen

 

Scunthorpe

R Tungate, L Bridger, R Douglas, L Kerr, S Nielsen, F Wallner, D Halsey

 

Sheffield

H Andersen, J Garrity, K Howarth, L Bjerre, J Bates, J Parkinson-Blackburn, B Hopwood

 

Somerset

K Kasprzak, J Grajczonek, K Gomolski, D Berge, J Graversen, B Wilson-Dean, T Brennan

 

Swindon

J Doyle, B Kurtz, N Porsing, N Klindt, E Grondal, Z Wajtnecht, B Morley

 

Wolves

F Lindgren, J Sedgeman, A Skornicki, J Auty, T Proctor, N Greaves, D Greenwood

 

Workington

C Cook, R Wells, T Jorgensen, J Andersen, A Roynon, M Campton, R Shuttleworth

 

34 riders excluded who had an average of 5.00+ last year who I think do not have a team place in the UK this year, plus a couple of others who were on the list but have retired. The above includes 4 (Zagar, Iversen, Kylmakorpi and Schlein) who don't have a ride here this year but could feasibly ride in the UK (you could probably swap one of the first two for Jonsson if needs be).

 

The discrepancy between the best 7 and worst 7 (Kings Lynn and Berwick I would say) isn't quite as big as I thought but it's still pretty sizeable, although I guess you'd get that in most 18 team leagues in any sport to be honest. It was tricky filling out the last few spots, and of course this is without considering averages and without considering who would actually sign for certain clubs, although a good percentage of riders have recent connections to their club I think. You would probably need some sort of draft system for at least part of the septets (1, 6 and 7 or the top couple) to keep it reasonably even each year. Would let any British reserves U25 double up in the National League, so there wouldn't be many riders lost to the NL as a consequence of this (just Bewley and the over 25 riders).

 

So in a nutshell, difficult without demoting a couple of teams, but not impossible. Whether some of the above riders would be able to make it pay as a consequence is another question entirely, but with 34 meetings plus at least one cup competition, you'd hope so.

Edited March 5, 2017 by CUFC_Brummie

[waytogo28]

Those now opting out superstars and they are thrill merchants for sure - have failed to put bums on seats over several seasons, will cost at least £5+k per match. Sadly they have proved to be too expensive when balanced against turnstile income. Not enough punters were thrilled by them ( or not enough new punters turned up in the stadiums after watching them in GPs on TV )

[KevH]

A young British rider cannot get a team spot in his own country ?

I'd say that more than makes a mockery of the sport , its embarrassing !

You are wrong (in my opinion).

 

Why should a rider command a team place based purely on his country of birth?

 

When that young British rider reaches the required standard, he will be offered a team place.

When the Provincial League was formed in 1960 everyone said at the time that there wouldn't be enough riders to staff 10 new teams, but as things turned out, none of the clubs had any problems in filling their sides. Accepted there were some very wide differentials in the strength of the clubs - Northern clubs tended to go for the riders who had been second halfers at Belle Vue or Bradford (and quite a few of them were in their mid 30's or even older) whilst Southern clubs went for many of the ex riders who had retired because the top league was too tough for them.

 

The bottom line though, was that the riders were there when needed.

I believe the very same thing happened eight years later when BL Division Two was formed.........proof indeed that it would work.

[WestGorton1884]

You are wrong (in my opinion).

 

Why should a rider command a team place based purely on his country of birth?

 

When that young British rider reaches the required standard, he will be offered a team place.

I believe the very same thing happened eight years later when BL Division Two was formed.........proof indeed that it would work.

Actually i dont think anyone is wrong or right on a forum , its just about opinions ,

However , I do think You're missing my point , ?

 

I've never stated riders should be guaranteed a team spot based purely on their country of birth ?

But surely Kerr , Sarjeant etc have reached a required level that would at the very least earn them a place with championship team ?

These are young British riders with potential , eager to learn / gain experience , who, for whatever reason cannot ply their trade in their own country

Surely thats not right ?

Edited March 5, 2017 by WestGorton1884

[stevebrum]

Here's the 24

Having reviewed the list thoroughly there are 54 riders who rode last year who appear not to be starting anywhere in the UK.

Retired - Lanham, Stead, Skidmore, Fisher, Gjedde(?) PK (from UK).

Wanting to ride but no team spots - Kenny Bjerre, Sarjeant and Nielsen

Had team spots in 2016 but probably aren't really good enough - Stokes, Ritchings, Halsey, Olly Greenwood.

The rest - Iversen, Jonsson, Zagar, Woffinden, Lindback, Bjarne P, Kylmakorpi, Ulamek, Bech, Korneilussen, Buczkowski, Thomsen, Wozniak, Kus, Walasek, Bach, Swiderski, Alden, Risager, Lyager, Woryna,Busk Jacobsen, Pjiper, Aarnio, Palovaraa, Wethers,Lykke,Mear, Mellgren, Simota, Hummel, Karger, Garcia, Bukhave, Castagna, Stachyra, Payne.

 

Like I said way more than 24. 36 was a quick look I'd missed plenty off when I did some simple homework.

[CookieIpswich]

6 man teams it is then lol

[stevebrum]

Well, like I said, I'm not getting involved in a mindless argument over how many riders need to be removed from the list the bspa produced, that's between you and halifaxtiger, I'm sure he'll come round to your way of thinking, or just give up trying to explain his thinking. I have to say he usually knows his stuff when it comes to speedway so I'm surprised he didn't do what you call 'simple homework', how he only managed to find 24 riders to take off the list is remarkable given how many on the list aren't 'starting anywhere in the UK'. I wouldn't mind but you managed to find 36 with just a 'quick look'!!!

I've no idea why you are still going on about a mindless argument for.

You asked me to provide information and I have.

You have however ignored my genuine question on at least 2 occasions as if we have such an abundance of riders to fill team spots as you suggest why then are we still using double uppers????

[stevebrum]

Good effort but you've not done your 'simple homework' and used riders brum describes as 'who appear not to be starting anywhere in the UK'. Back to the drawing board I'm afraid!

 

It's mindless because you have done 'some homework' and come up with 54 names 'who appear not to be starting anywhere in the UK'. Why you think all 54 wouldn't 'be starting anywhere in the UK' if the doubling up wasn't an option is a bit of a mystery, but I'm not arguing with you, I doubt anyone will, because it is always a mindless waste of time.

I've explained why we don't need doubling up but that was based on halifaxtigers incorrect assumptions about available riders, I even spelt it out when you incorrectly plucked '36' from thin air.

Just in case you missed it while you were busy with your 'simple homework' I'll spell it out again for you.

I multiplied 18 x 7 to work out how many riders were required without doubling up, counted up the number of riders the bspa included on their list, knocked the 24 halifaxtiger posted (and then upped it to your 36!) and then ludicrously considered that there may be several riders not on the bspa's list who may be allowed to sign for a team in the UK despite blocking another doubling up opportunity.

Having done that I was confident of at least 126 riders being available.

But still missing my point not surprisingly.

Doesn't matter how high the number is how many are realistically likely to come back out of that list?

Take out the top guys because we are meant to be cutting costs right??

 

Lindback has zero interest in being here, ditto MJJ, ditto Walasek, kornielussen, Buczkowski, Thomsen, Swiderski, Alden, Stachyra, Bech.

 

so realistically of those on the list who appear to WANT to ride here you can add about 14 who are a decent enough standard.

 

I expanded the list for one point only. Doesn't matter how many are on it. It's who wants to ride here from it that's the important thing. And when you look at those left who are in the list there isn't a great deal of choice to select from.

 

You think there will be enough riders for next season using only one league. Fair enough and you could be right.

I still believe there are not enough decent standard riders that want to come to fill those glaringly obvious heat leader/second string roles.

 

I'm not getting into a silly debate with you as mine was only an opinion based on observations so I don't feel a need to be proved right. I'm just offering a caution to those who believe that one big league will be simple, easy to sort and the way forward.

Edited March 6, 2017 by stevebrum

[woofers]

I realize the circumstances behind it ,

but the fact a young British rider like James Sarjeant cant get a team spot anywhere

in British speedway , makes a mockery of the sport .

He did get a team spot. Problem is the team folded. He might have had an inkling this was a risk and could happen given the shenanigans that have been going at Coventry for some time.

 

Really it's no different to anyone else with a job, and then finding your employer has gone bust.

 

I'm sure he'll get a place as soon as a suitable vacancy occurs.

[Shale Searcher]

He did get a team spot. Problem is the team folded. He might have had an inkling this was a risk and could happen given the shenanigans that have been going at Coventry for some time.

 

Really it's no different to anyone else with a job, and then finding your employer has gone bust.

 

I'm sure he'll get a place as soon as a suitable vacancy occurs.

 

James Sargeant was having a spin at Scunthorpe when he found out, an amateur rider consoled him and his mechanic, they didn't know...