g13webb Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 For the first time this year the BSPA have formed a connection between the top two leagues. Sure this is a start but I wonder why they didn't go the whole hog and incorporated the NL into the format as well with the promotion and relegation. There are teams in the NL that are far too good and should be promoted to a more level competition. These leagues should have priority whence it would be the intention of every club to get to the top league. Double uppers, although I don't like them, they have to be better governed. A rider is able to do 2 teams that must be of the next level. ( i.e.:- 1 and 2; or 2and 3, but never 1 and 3) Only 2 riders per team can D/U. and when matches clash then the top league would always takes preference . Also there can be restriction of high CMA applied as to restrict top riders from D/U As per normal we appear to do only half a job and have to cope with the consequences...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevH Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 If that did happen, british speedway would fold. Riders who only ride in the UK, cannot earn enough riding for just 1 team, sadly that is a fact of british speedway in the 21st century If that's the case, those riders need to get a day job. No rider is bigger than the sport, and no rider has the right to expect a living from it. If the sport of speedway is to survive in this country, the sport will have to dictate the rules, not the riders. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Searcher Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) I have to agree, doubling up/down/sideways is a big killer of Speedway, not the only one, but it has huge ramifications on the sports integrity, and now also provides an easier life to riders that double down... Not quite the same doubling up.. One rider, One team, if you can't make it pay, then get another job outside of Speedway.. Let's say that, the top league should be the fully professional league, riders should be able to make a living in that league, without riding for another team, in any Speedway league.. The 2nd league should be a mix of semi-pro riders, and the best of the best of previous seasons 3rd league, which isn't a promotion/relegation league, as its considered a "stepping stone" league, only employing riders that are trying to break into Speedway, a league where expenses are paid, and a very small points payment. This 3rd league can employ a senior rider to act as captain/manager/trainer, a paid role, best suited to retiring riders.. The leagues that cause the anomalies in British Speedway are the 2nd and 3rd leagues, they have to many experienced riders and riders using them as "Easy Earners" Thus creating skill gaps, closer together than heathly leagues should have.... One Rider, One Team.... Edited March 3, 2017 by Shale Searcher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 I've no evidence of what the nl riders earn but I have been told that some of them have demands as though there GP riders, can't be right surely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Searcher Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 I've no evidence of what the nl riders earn but I have been told that some of them have demands as though there GP riders, can't be right surely Exactly, and free vans, mechanics, trappings that should be only available to the top league... The gaps between the leagues has been artificially forced together. Teams in the 2nd division, wanting riders of 1st division status, but don't want the additional costs that go with it.. It's difficult to explain, but it needs sorting, and quickly.. It will cause a season or two of pain, but ultimately, British Speedway will recover... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 There aren't enough riders to fill out one big league hence why doubling up is part of the game. Thank god because one big league would be the last nail in the coffin of British speedway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EIS002 Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) Whilst it's criminal that some British riders are left without a club at all, it would be the wrong thing to allow these riders to replace much lower standard riders because they have 3 clubs. What this will do will give an advantage to those clubs who have the riders mentioned and that cannot be right. Every season you get one or two riders missing out and this has become more apparent due to the poor handling of the Coventry situation. Chapman has at least admitted in this week's speedway star that they should have pulled Coventry back in November and whether this would have had an impact on those named riders missing out on team places is still very much open to discussion. One less team means 7 less places so someone would have missed out. The most criminal thing however is that these riders who are still developing and improving have no team places in the 2nd tier. This league if anything is more guilty. It's not criminal,,,,, but more close to the truth!!!! Spot in Steve Edited March 3, 2017 by EIS002 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scrutton Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 I think that it is right that a rider can ride in 3 leagues. Josh Bailey for one will find it hard in the top league and a much better choice would be Sergeant or Nielsen but that would put LYNN over the points limit. not much but you could do the same for other teams who wanted to help out other British riders . but this would probably cause to much trouble now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish McRaker Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 Sam Masters, [/size]Jack Holder, [/size]Bradley Wilson-Dean, and [/size]Josh Grajczonek are the only non EU riders doubling up, or have i missed someone ?[/size] Which by coincidence equals a job each for Sarjeant, Neilson and Jacobs. But I'd go further and include E.Riss, then the likes of Campton and T.Kurtz who although having only one job each, have had enough chances to prove they are worth employing at the expense of a Brit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookieIpswich Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 If you go one big league it would have to be 16 team with the rest forming part of an expanded national league. 30 league meetings Group format league cup Two legged KO Cup 40 odd meetings there.... Reduce the costs to riders through product, bike performance, tyres, fuel etc Minimun appearance fee guarantee Fixed points money for ALL riders based on position in the team I.e no1 higher point money, heat leaders main body then reserves, like a salary cap in a sense. Better marketing, media exposure so riders attract more sponsorship with league and cup comps sponsored. An expanded 5 round British championship fully sponsored with prize money and/or incentives like a mini gp series. No best pairs No 4TT No riders championship 16 team premiership or super league Belle Vue Rye House Poole Somerset Glasgow Ipswich Kings Lynn Leicester Swindon Wolverhampton Sheffield Peterborough Newcastle Berwick Edinburgh Workington National League Redcar Scunthorpe Belle Vue Birmingham Buxton Cradley Eastboune Isle of wight Kent Lakeside Kings lynn Mildenhall Plymouth Stoke 14 teams AS AN EXAMPLE No doubling up, there are enough riders to fill 16 teams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) ? If every current pl team and every cl team formed a 'big league' it would need less than 130 riders. It is quite stupid to say that there aren't enough riders, isn't it? There aren't enough riders to fill both the premiership and championship teams this season, or are you telling me I'm wrong? ?The NL wouldn't be part of one big league so I'm only using the teams we currently have in those leagues. We might gain more teams like Birmingham and Eastbourne which might help but how on earth is it possible to fill all the teams currently in both the top 2 leagues with one club only riders when we can't do that now?? so no, I don't reckon there are enough riders to fill all the teams positions. We have 3 riders out of work at present yet how many are sharing roles in the top 2 leagues? I make it 21. so where are these other 18 riders coming from??? The NL (18 riders won't be of reserve standard imho). so, where are these riders coming from?? still think it's stupid? Edited March 4, 2017 by stevebrum 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dump that clutch Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 There aren't enough riders to fill out one big league hence why doubling up is part of the game. Thank god because one big league would be the last nail in the coffin of British speedway. you say that Steve, but this year the powers to be have made that very structure possible by dumbing down the top league even further. I feel it will happen sooner than you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 you say that Steve, but this year the powers to be have made that very structure possible by dumbing down the top league even further. I feel it will happen sooner than you think. The indications are that it's going that way but I believe the promoters are keen to keep the leagues separate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post brianbuck Posted March 4, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 This "can't make it pay if I have only one team" call is just a parrot cry by the riders. Every week we see National League riders roll into the pits in vans big enough to live in and start unloading three bikes or more from them. A dose of reality is needed here - none of this is necessary and the riders need to start looking at living within their means if they are not to eventually price themselves out altogether! 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestGorton1884 Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) No, what is making a mockery of the sport is that riders can have more than one team spot in the first place. In my opinion, this is the one thing above all others which has/will kill the sport in this county. A young British rider cannot get a team spot in his own country ? I'd say that more than makes a mockery of the sport , its embarrassing ! Edited March 4, 2017 by WestGorton1884 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWC Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 King Cook Masters shouldn't be doubling down 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 Of course there are enough riders, 18 teams needs just 126 riders. The list of riders on the bspa website has around 150 names on it, you can take maybe 10 names off the list but that still leaves 140 before any new riders are added. Has there ever been a season which didn't include a new overseas rider? Okay there would probably be a few average journeymen like Skorniki and a dodgy pole or two like the lad Coventry had last season but to suggest there wouldn't be 126 riders available is stupid. Then it's just a case of setting a sensible points limit, which would be around 48 for one league. Two leagues make it a little bit more difficult but a PL limit of 49 and a CL limit of 39 would probably do it. It would obviously mean some teams would end up with say Kennett or Fricke or Tungate or even Harris as their number 1 but I can't see a problem with that. Doubling up just makes it look like there wouldn't be enough riders. Makes you wonder why teams struggle to fill places without double uppers which has littered teams for several seasons then if it's apparently that easy. If it was as easy as you suggested then why on earth do we need double up riders?? The truth is within the quality of riders on the BSPA list, what is stupid is suggesting it's so simple to divide the riders on the list out to make one rider teams. If it was possible they would already be doing it. There aren't enough top quality riders available to make the team strengths even and meaningful. King Cook Masters shouldn't be doubling down The riders will say they can't make it pay by doing one league in the UK. I can see several riders quiting because they won't be able to make it pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Flag Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 This "can't make it pay if I have only one team" call is just a parrot cry by the riders. Every week we see National League riders roll into the pits in vans big enough to live in and start unloading three bikes or more from them. A dose of reality is needed here - none of this is necessary and the riders need to start looking at living within their means if they are not to eventually price themselves out altogether! I couldn't agree more, I recently had a conversation with an MDL standard rider and was asking him about his plans over the winter/ next season, he had been part of the Poultec scheme but didn't bother now as it cost him fuel to get there..... And his next line was I need a new van, I asked why didn't he buy a bike trailer for the car and spend the saved money on upgrading his equipment to which he replied "I need to look good arriving at the track in a good van" and that for me sums it up 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbuck Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 When I first began following speedway in 1953, at Birmingham, the riders had one bike each and the club provided a track spare. There was also a fully fitted workshop located within the stadium and the club employed a professional mechanic who looked after the bikes of all the Birmingham riders and kept the track spare in top condition. Nothing at all wrong with a system like that and no reason at all why it shouldn't be re-introduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) Of course there are enough riders, 18 teams needs just 126 riders. The list of riders on the bspa website has around 150 names on it, you can take maybe 10 names off the list but that still leaves 140 before any new riders are added. Has there ever been a season which didn't include a new overseas rider? Okay there would probably be a few average journeymen like Skorniki and a dodgy pole or two like the lad Coventry had last season but to suggest there wouldn't be 126 riders available is stupid. Then it's just a case of setting a sensible points limit, which would be around 48 for one league. Two leagues make it a little bit more difficult but a PL limit of 49 and a CL limit of 39 would probably do it. It would obviously mean some teams would end up with say Kennett or Fricke or Tungate or even Harris as their number 1 but I can't see a problem with that. Doubling up just makes it look like there wouldn't be enough riders. I think Steve is right. A quick count up of Championship riders doubling up and there are about 20. Take in the boys doubling up between the NL & SGBC and it becomes 30. Allowing the latter, that's 20 new riders we have to find but its not just that because those 20 new riders have to fit in with the league structure. While there are 150 names on the BSPA website, they include Connor Locke, Richard Andrews, David Mason, Tony Atkin, David Speight, Anders Rowe, Tom Woolley and many more. With respect to those riders, if British Speedway had to start drafting them into its top flights it really would be in trouble. . The riders will say they can't make it pay by doing one league in the UK. And yet over half of those in the Championship only do one league here. Take away the NL boys doubling up and it becomes over two-thirds. I think Brian is right. With the exception of the top boys, speedway is not a full time occupation even in the season yet some treat it as though it is or expect it to be so. Nor has that ever been the case. I have cited elsewhere the case of Tony Davey, a 9.00 rider in the British League of the 1970's who struggled to make it pay. While I am not opposed to doubling up, it has become (for some) simply a method of boosting their earnings rather than a tool by which younger riders can gain experience and knowledge. Edited March 5, 2017 by Halifaxtiger 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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