Sidney the robin Posted December 29, 2016 Report Share Posted December 29, 2016 It is all theoretical of course and i agree in a way with what you are saying.Lot of top riders left the sport around the same time for one reason or another But,i would say like Knutson,Penhall,Lee and Carter didn't have the head for the sport any more.If they had of continued i don't think they would have have maintained the top form.I mean Lee did carry on and was never really the same,because of his mental failings.As for Sigalos and Sanders,it is hard to say,but i was never convinced Sanders was really a top top rider.On the other hand there were those i mentioned plus Knudsen,Tatum etc who were decent,if not as good as Sanders also around at the time of Hans and Erik Imo you can say "what if" with riders who had an injury or tragic accident.Riders like Farndon,Jansson,Ward,but i don't believe that is the case with riders like Crutcher,Knutson,Lee,Penhall,as it was their mentality that stopped them carrying on or reaching the top for longer in Lees case.If their mentality changed then they would be a different person...... Penhall if he had stayed around how many times would he have won it ? quite a few times i believe..Lee was top class in 83/ for me at his best the best rider in the world that year.His career after that was finished nearly all of it of his own doing Carter well was just unlucky no doubt about that.Sigalos was classy had a bad injury and his top days were gone.Sanders Iris dont know where you are coming from with your oinion about him he was always a very good rider.Up until his death for a couple of years he had really come into his own upped his game not far off reaching his PEAK if he had been around he would of been a player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 29, 2016 Report Share Posted December 29, 2016 (edited) Penhall if he had stayed around how many times would he have won it ? quite a few times i believe Maybe never.You could look at Jack Young after his two titles people were probably predicting he would win another 1 or 2 titles,but never did.Hard to say,but like i said if his head was elsewhere he might not(probably not)have carried on at the same level.Lee was a flawed personality and that is a fact.As i have said to say what if,is to ask him to be another person and then that wouldn't be Michael Lee...... It is like asking what if Kelvin Tatum was a better rider,how many titles would he have won? Edited December 29, 2016 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted December 29, 2016 Report Share Posted December 29, 2016 (edited) At the risk of breaking up "Sidney vs Iris - Round Two", I have to agree with Doug here. What made Lee and Carter so good - and so exciting - was their mentality and temperament. It was also their downfall. As Doug said, a different mindset may have helped, but that would mean they were a completely different person, so it is all totally meaningless now. Once Nielsen got his head out of his backside (on the big occasions), it was his temperament that made him the rider he was, and for that reason, he is one of the FEW I would put up their with Mauger and Fundin. Penhall absolutely loved his speedway, but while it's okay to say that the prospect of a successful acting career was a catalyst, I think it was clear that by 1982, he wasn't the same rider - or the same person - he had been in previous years. Of course, he was desperate to win in L.A., but the passion wasn't there. Again, like Knutson, he may have been thinking he should get out relatively unscathed, and there's no telling just how much Denny Pyeatt's tragic death influenced his final decision. Regarding Sanders... Sidney, Doug NEVER ONCE claimed that he wasn't a "very good rider"; he said that he was never convinced he was "really a top top rider". I agree 100%, and Billy was one of my faves. "Top top" riders were Mauger, Fundin, Nielsen etc, and while Billy was always there or thereabouts, he was never quite able to break into the top echelon. Steve Edited December 30, 2016 by chunky 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) At the risk of breaking up "Sidney vs Iris - Round Two", I have to agree with Doug here. What made Lee and Carter so good - and so exciting - was their mentality and temperament. It was also their downfall. As Doug said, a different mindset may have helped, but that would mean they were a completely different person, so it is all totally meaningless now. Once Nielsen got his head out of his backside (on the big occasions), it was his temperament that made him the rider he was, and for that reason, he is one of the FEW I would put up their with Mauger and Fundin. Penhall absolutely loved his speedway, but while it's okay to say that the prospect of a successful acting career was a catalyst, I think it was clear that by 1982, he wasn't the same rider - or the same person - he had been in previous years. Of course, he was desperate to win in L.A., but the passion wasn't there. Again, like Knutson, he may have been thinking he should get out relatively unscathed, and there's no telling just how much Denny Pyeatt's tragic death influenced his final decision. Regarding Sanders... Sidney, Doug NEVER ONCE claimed that he wasn't a "very good rider"; he said that he was never convinced he was "really a top top rider". I agree 100%, and Billy was one of my faves. "Top top" riders were Mauger, Fundin, Nielsen etc, and while Billy was always there or thereabouts, he was never quite able to break into the top echelon. Steve I did say Sanders was one of the best in the top five riders easily around his untimely death.Penhall yes maybe the passion had gone but i always remember what Briggo said at one of his farewell meeting's Germany that Penhall had gone to soon.He said he would of won more titles and if he was dedicated and put in a years training could even ride at a high level then.Both you and Iris make great points cant argue with that both have a happy new year.😀 Edited December 30, 2016 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) It is all theoretical of course and i agree in a way with what you are saying.Lot of top riders left the sport around the same time for one reason or another But,i would say like Knutson,Penhall,Lee and Carter didn't have the head for the sport any more.If they had of continued i don't think they would have have maintained the top form.I mean Lee did carry on and was never really the same,because of his mental failings.. I don't think you can say that about Knutsson. Lee and Carter were both a bit of a pickle with a prominent self destruct button. Penhall seems to have had bigger fish to fry but we still don't really know why Knutsson retired at such a young age. Rember it was an era when riders didn't earn the sort of money they earn now, and almost all had outside business interests until the late sixties. It has been suggested that Knutsson had a car dealership and I think. I have heard that as well. it might well be that if Knutsson could earn the sort of money that later generations were earning he might well have continued. What we can say is that from the age of 23 until the end of his career he was never ranked lower than 4th in the Speedwáy Star World Rankings and Ivan Mauger, only a year younger was never ranked higher either in the rankings or in any individual competition including the World Final until after Knutsson had retired. Of course, as has been mentioned a lot depends on what era you were riding in. I doubt that Ivan woukd have collected 6 world titles if his career had paralleled Briggs, Fundin, etc when they were at their leaks, and equally if Fundin was 6 or 7 years younger and riding through out the 70's I daresay he would have taken more than 5 titles, and almost certainly taken some that eventually went to Olsen, Mauger, etc,, possibly one might say the same thing about Ronnie Moore. All speculation of course but by all accounts Fundin in particular was something very, very, special. Interestingly in the 5 World Finals in which Fundin met Knutsson- BK beat Fundin 3 of those times(-one of the two he lost was when he fell trying to overtake Ove)-don't know what that signifies if anything!! In answer to Norbold I would have to give the nod to Gladstone over Rosebery. At his peak Gladstone was superfit. One of his hobbies( apart-ahem- from saving young girls from sin) was cutting down trees on his estate at Hawarden, he also had super self confidence since he knew God was on his side. Now if you matched him up against Disraeli there could be a different outcome. Disraeli had a super smooth style and was good on slippery tracks-he was also a better gater!!! ...and Disraeli was sponsored by Lord Rothschild, which is even better than Monster Joe. Edited December 30, 2016 by E I Addio 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 I don't think you can say that about Knutsson. Lee and Carter were both a bit of a pickle with a prominent self destruct button. Penhall seems to have had bigger fish to fry but we still don't really know why Knutsson retired at such a young age. Rember it was an era when riders didn't earn the sort of money they earn now, and almost all had outside business interests until the late sixties. Yes,you could well be right.As i said before i don*t really know an awful lot about him,so was taking a guess.Going on the lines of Lee and Ronnie in a way.Highly talented rides who couldn't maintain the standard or interest perhaps.Of course Ronnie didn't have the self destruct button and i guess Bjorn also didn't.But for me when things come relatively easy,riders tend to lose the kick and there seems a need to find a new kick elsewhere.With Ronnie it was racing cars,with Lee it was an artificial kick,with Penhall it was Hollywood.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Split Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 Ivan for me was the yardstick that you measured the others against. He was superb,even though i wasn't a great fan .I'd want some of the others to beat him, although often that was a forelorn hope.Olsen,Michanek and Collins then Lee. They all had their day, but they just weren't at the level Ivan was for as long. Olsen was the pioneer, but suffers a bit because he was imo surpassed by Gundersen and Nielsen Many people seem to think that Ivan Mauger’s career began when he started riding for Newcastle in 1963. He did of course appear for Wimbledon in 1957-8 but then chose to stay in New Zealand for a number of years. During that time he had some notable successes against visiting overseas riders and his potential was obvious. That potential was realised when he rode regularly against world class opposition in British league racing and six World Championship victories were the result. I ask myself what would have happened of he had chosen to participate in British League racing from 1959 to 1962? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 When i think back Ivan often got booed at the Abbey but he took it all in his stride.I think he took it as a compliment it spurred him on for me he took speedway to another level a one/off really.Great immaculate aquipment a big van spotless had a good team around him and he was always great with the fans.Being a Briggo fan i was never a fan of Ivan but whenever i saw him ride it was an ocassion how i so admired what he achieved in his career a true legend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 When i think back Ivan often got booed at the Abbey but he took it all in his stride.I think he took it as a compliment it spurred him on for me he took speedway to another level a one/off really.Great immaculate aquipment a big van spotless had a good team around him and he was always great with the fans.Being a Briggo fan i was never a fan of Ivan but whenever i saw him ride it was an ocassion how i so admired what he achieved in his career a true legend. He was the iconic rider when I first attended speedway...the one that others tried to emulate and very few did. A true star and household name...not many, if any, fill that criteria today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) He was the iconic rider when I first attended speedway...the one that others tried to emulate and very few did. A true star and household name...not many, if any, fill that criteria today.I can remember Ivan wearing his white leathers for Exeter riders all had there own identity something that is missing today. Edited January 1, 2017 by Sidney the robin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) I can remember Ivan wearing his white leathers for Exeter riders all had there own identity something that is missing today. Slightly off topic but I could easily identify riders, not only by their leathers, but by the helmets and masks they used to wear. I'm obviously not advocating that riders should go back to wearing inadequate head gear but it was so much easier then (what with the differing styles also) My uncle (who used to be track photographer at Oxford) once asked me to view his archive of photos taken during the seventies (he had long stopped attending speedway) and identify the riders for him...I could name every one which is something I would have had difficulty in doing if asked to do the same thing when I stopped attending in the early noughties. Edited January 1, 2017 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Slightly off topic but I could easily identify riders, not only by their leathers, but by the helmets and masks they used to wear. I'm obviously not advocating that riders should go back to wearing inadequate head gear but it was so much easier then (what with the differing styles also) My uncle (who used to be track photographer at Oxford) once asked me to view his archive of photos taken during the seventies (he had long stopped attending speedway) and identify the riders for him...I could name every one which is something I would have had difficulty in doing if asked to do the same thing when I stopped attending in the early noughties.Steve maybe you would know this? did Briggo wear a full face helmet before Garry Middleton(Oxford).? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Steve maybe you would know this? did Briggo wear a full face helmet before Garry Middleton(Oxford).? Garry first rode with one regularly when he joined 'The Rebels' in 1972. Never forgot his 'day-glo' orange helmet! Not sure when Briggo first wore one but I'm sure that he rode with one during the 1971 season if not before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Garry first rode with one regularly when he joined 'The Rebels' in 1972. Never forgot his 'day-glo' orange helmet! Not sure when Briggo first wore one but I'm sure that he rode with one during the 1971 season if not before? Think he rode with one in America also i think briggo wore one maybe 1971 when he had pale blue and red leathers .???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 Think he rode with one in America also i think briggo wore one maybe 1971 when he had pale blue and red leathers .???? Briggo definitely wore a full-face in 1969; not sure if he was wearing one before then... Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 (edited) Briggo definitely wore a full-face in 1969; not sure if he was wearing one before then... Steve Spot on Chunky 1969 deffo, i have a picture in 1969 of Briggo on the front of the Speedway Pix magazine.Can certainly remember him wearing a full face helmet in the 1970 World Final how time has flown by.😜 Edited January 3, 2017 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 (edited) Spot on Chunky 1969 deffo, i have a picture in 1969 of Briggo on the front of the Speedway Pix magazine.Can certainly remember him wearing a full face helmet in the 1970 World Final how time has flown by. I think you are right on that sid. I saw full face helmets for the first time at Brands Hatch about that time,then Briggo straight afterwards. I am sure he was the first Speedwáy rider to wear one. Correct me if I am wrong but I think he wore one of his own design, with the Briggo brand from the very beginning. Edited January 3, 2017 by E I Addio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 I think you are right on that sid. I saw full face helmets for the first time at Brands Hatch about that time,then Briggo straight afterwards. I am sure he was the first Speedwáy rider to wear one. Correct me if I am wrong but I think he wore one of his own design, with the Briggo brand from the very beginning. It's an interesting on...full face helmets. When I first started attending speedway they were few and far between. In fact if I put my mind to it I could probably list the riders who regularly wore one. However by the late seventies/early eighties most riders had them and It would be easier to list the riders who didn't own one! The Grahame brothers never went down that road (which was unusual) but I guess the influx of American riders helped speed up the transformation where in the States they were very popular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 When did the old monkey mask go out of fashion the nineties i suppose.?I think Autrey/McKnight were two of the first group of imports that wore full face helmets a trend that now is the norm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Briggo definitely wore a full-face in 1969; not sure if he was wearing one before then... Steve Was thinking about this and at first thought "who was the first i saw in a full faced helmet?",then it came to me .......Juri Gagarin!!!! He won the race into space with a full faced helmet.Quite possibly though Laika was a predecessor,and then thinking about it more maybe my great grandad who was a deep sea diver in the Navy beat them all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.