The Greatest Riders

[waiheke1]

Re Jan o: by 88 he had a 2nd and a 3rd in the world final, a blrc title and three WTC titles. In a gp system I think it's fair to say he would have been 2nd or 3rd in 88. So while only st the tail end of the period, I think it's fair to say he was riding at the top top level.

 

Not convinced by Eric Boococks claim tbh, he is a rider that never really did it at the top top level.

 

But there are probably 50 riders you could make a case for, and his is arguably more worthy than some of the other nominees such as Bobby "never made a world final" Schwartz and Bo Petersen imo.

 

Interesting discussion for sure.

Briggs Jan o pedersen and s moran then seem to be the other riders common to all three lists.

Carter ermolenko sigalos sanders jessup Simmons p crump b jansson all appear on two lists.

That would give us 19 with one spot left to fill. And I'd be tempted to give that to Muller, who appeared only on Gustix list, but as a world champ include him ahead of the other "one vote" riders.

So that's 20, just need to sort them.

So we have now 10 riders on all 4 lists:

Mauger nielsen olsen gundersen penhall Collins Lee Michanek Briggs s moran

The following on three lists:

Jan o pedersen Carter sigalos sanders jessup simmons

On two lists:

P crump b jansson ermolenko autrey morton

21 riders to fit into 20 spots.

[Sidney the robin]

Re Jan o: by 88 he had a 2nd and a 3rd in the world final, a blrc title and three WTC titles. In a gp system I think it's fair to say he would have been 2nd or 3rd in 88. So while only st the tail end of the period, I think it's fair to say he was riding at the top top level.

 

Not convinced by Eric Boococks claim tbh, he is a rider that never really did it at the top top level.

 

But there are probably 50 riders you could make a case for, and his is arguably more worthy than some of the other nominees such as Bobby "never made a world final" Schwartz and Bo Petersen imo.

 

Interesting discussion for sure.

So we have now 10 riders on all 4 lists:

Mauger nielsen olsen gundersen penhall Collins Lee Michanek Briggs s moran

The following on three lists:

Jan o pedersen Carter sigalos sanders jessup simmons

On two lists:

P crump b jansson ermolenko autrey morton

21 riders to fit into 20 spots.

Again that shows do you go by riders world honours, or there Longevity,Consistency and domestic form.? For me English riders Wilson, E.Boocock,Louis,Ashby,Jessup,Betts were all in the same pot level wise but Wilson (World team cup max only)Louis,Jessup achieved more at World level.Even so Boocock,Ashby,Betts could all be considered in this discussion. Edited December 21, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[chunky]

Re Jan o: by 88 he had a 2nd and a 3rd in the world final, a blrc title and three WTC titles. In a gp system I think it's fair to say he would have been 2nd or 3rd in 88. So while only st the tail end of the period, I think it's fair to say he was riding at the top top level.

 

Not convinced by Eric Boococks claim tbh, he is a rider that never really did it at the top top level.

 

But there are probably 50 riders you could make a case for, and his is arguably more worthy than some of the other nominees such as Bobby "never made a world final" Schwartz and Bo Petersen imo.

 

Interesting discussion for sure.

So we have now 10 riders on all 4 lists:

Mauger nielsen olsen gundersen penhall Collins Lee Michanek Briggs s moran

The following on three lists:

Jan o pedersen Carter sigalos sanders jessup simmons

On two lists:

P crump b jansson ermolenko autrey morton

21 riders to fit into 20 spots.

I tend to put less emphasis on team results than on individual/pairs, which is one reason I didn't factor the WTC medals into Pedersen's rating. Not taking anything away from Jan O., but when you are alongside Nielsen, Gundersen, and Knudsen, chances are you will win! Again, it is partly a longevity issue. Bot than anyone here would be likely to include him, but let's look at Zenon Plech... Like Jan O., he had a second and a third in World Finals (and eight appearances), a silver and three bronzes from World Pairs, and a silver and four bronzes in World Team Cup! Impressive by anyone's standards!

 

A BLRC title is impressive, but Les Collins had one of those, along with a World Final silver. Again, it depends HOW you want to make your case... Jerzy Szczakiel had a World Final gold, a World Pairs gold (and a maximum), and a WTC bronze!

 

Of course, if the list was 1969-1998, he would have been a definite on my list! Extend it into a simple post-war list, and he disappears again, as we make room for Hancock, Rickardsson, Gollob, Crump minor,and perhaps the other Pedersen!

 

I do get your point about Boocock not starring at international level, but he is one of a very select few to post a 10+ BL average for that period of time; he was a dominant force - with a British Championship under his belt. I also felt the same as you regarding Muller; I desperately wanted to include him.

 

Just a thought, how about a "BL era" list???

 

Steve

Edited December 21, 2016 by chunky

[Sidney the robin]

I tend to put less emphasis on team results than on individual/pairs, which is one reason I didn't factor the WTC medals into Pedersen's rating. Not taking anything away from Jan O., but when you are alongside Nielsen, Gundersen, and Knudsen, chances are you will win! Again, it is partly a longevity issue. Bot than anyone here would be likely to include him, but let's look at Zenon Plech... Like Jan O;, he had a second and a third in World Finals (and eight appearances), a silver and three bronzes from World Pairs, and a silver and four bronzes in World Team Cup! Impressive by anyone's standards!

 

A BLRC title is impressive, but Les Collins had one of those, along with a World final silver. Again, it depends HOW you want to make your case... Jerzy Szczakiel had a World Final gold, a World Pairs gold (and a maximum), and a WTC bronze!

 

Of course, if the list was 1969-1998, he would have been a definite on my list! Extend it into a simple post-war list, and he disappears again, as we make room for Hancock, Rickardsson, Gollob, Crump minor,and perhaps the other Pedersen!

 

I do get your point about Boocock not starring at international level, but he is one of a very select few to post a 10+ BL average for that period of time; he was a dominant force - with a British Championship under his belt. I also felt the same as you regarding Muller; I desperately wanted to include him.

 

Just a thought, how about a "BL era" list???

 

Steve

(1969/88 B.L. (20) Briggs,Mauger,Michanek,Penhall,Lee,Collins,Nielsen, Gundersen,Carter,Crump,Sanders,E..Boocock,Sigalos,T.Jansson,Autrey,Jessup ,Ashby,R.Wilson,Boulger,Simmons. Edited December 21, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[waiheke1]

Surely chris morton needs to make that list, ahead of say Boulger or Ashby?

Nice list though Sid.

[chunky]

(1969/88 B.L. (20) Briggs,Mauger,Michanek,Penhall,Lee,Collins,Nielsen, Gundersen,Carter,Crump,Sanders,E..Boocock,Sigalos,T.Jansson,Autrey,Jessup ,Ashby,R.Wilson,Boulger,Simmons.

When I said "BL era", I meant the years 1965-1990...

 

My list for that would be (in no order):

 

1 - Ivan Mauger

2 - Barry Briggs

3 - Bruce Penhall

4 - Ole Olsen

5 - Hans Nielsen

6 - Erik Gundersen

7 - Phil Crump

8 - Nigel Boocock

9 - Ken McKinlay

10 - Peter Collins

11 - Eric Boocock

12 - Michael Lee

13 - Malcolm Simmons

14 - Anders Michanek

15 - Kenny Carter

16 - Torbjorn Harrysson

17 - Gote Nordin

18 - Ray Wilson

19 - Dave Jessup

20 - Jim Airey

 

Honourable mentions for Morton (not Wal or Val), Sanders, Ashby, Knudsen, Autrey, Bengt Jansson, Shawn Moran, Sigalos, Louis, and Sjosten.

 

Steve

[The White Knight]

 

Honourable mentions for Morton (not Wal or Val), Sanders, Ashby, Knudsen, Autrey, Bengt Jansson, Shawn Moran, Sigalos, Louis, and Sjosten.

 

Steve

That'll be Dave then?

[chunky]

That'll be Dave then?

Of course not! It's my old mate Ray!

 

Steve

[BOBBATH]

Re Sidney the Robins' post on Dec 18th-while I appreciate being mentioned in the same breath as for example such luminaries as that young guy Norbold, et al., I must disagree that I am an elder statesman- I'm only 70 FFS-although I will admit to being on the cusp of middle age. I reckon to be considered an elder statesman you have to be 90 at least so I reckon Split Waterman qualifies as does Chuck Berry. Having said that I was in UK enjoying speedway only for the period 1964-68. However- I do agree with comments that Bjorn Knutsson was a giant of that period-I was privileged to see him win the World Title in 65 at my first visit to Wembley. I do miss the excitement of the one-off World Finals , although I accept that there were a few top guys who missed out winning due to engine failure etc. e.g. Dave Jessup, or falls e.g. Graham Warren, and others won only because it was held on their own "home" track e.g. Egon Muller imho Don't follow the current GP system-think its daft that you can become Champ without winning a single Grand Prix e.g. Mark Loram

As others have said this is a great thread with interesting lists from all and I have enjoyed reading the various erudite (that word again) postings. I undertake to contact Split and Chuck and ask them what they drink-I will share the findings with forumlanders so that we can all order a case of it!!! P.S. The last WF I attended was in L.A. in 1982-another great one!!

[Guest]

When I said "BL era", I meant the years 1965-1990...

 

My list for that would be (in no order):

 

1 - Ivan Mauger

2 - Barry Briggs

3 - Bruce Penhall

4 - Ole Olsen

5 - Hans Nielsen

6 - Erik Gundersen

7 - Phil Crump

8 - Nigel Boocock

9 - Ken McKinlay

10 - Peter Collins

11 - Eric Boocock

12 - Michael Lee

13 - Malcolm Simmons

14 - Anders Michanek

15 - Kenny Carter

16 - Torbjorn Harrysson

17 - Gote Nordin

18 - Ray Wilson

19 - Dave Jessup

20 - Jim Airey

 

Honourable mentions for Morton (not Wal or Val), Sanders, Ashby, Knudsen, Autrey, Bengt Jansson, Shawn Moran, Sigalos, Louis, and Sjosten.

 

Steve

 

An interesting list but no real use in regard to the search for the era 1969-1988 which is what this thread is trying to analyse.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Guest

[Sidney the robin]

Surely chris morton needs to make that list, ahead of say Boulger or Ashby?

Nice list though Sid.

I am bias and you are right Chris should be in it. Ashby i suppose to be honest never showed his full worth he was a member of the 75 Norden winning side also that meeting he won a prestigious Victor Ludorum second halve final.Overall Martin underachieved for me he was one hell of a good rider.Boulger i have always rated tough to beat tough/as old boots and over that period he could beat everyone he was often overshadowed by Crump/Sanders John was a super rider in his own right. Edited December 21, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[Guest]

Re Sidney the Robins' post on Dec 18th-while I appreciate being mentioned in the same breath as for example such luminaries as that young guy Norbold, et al., I must disagree that I am an elder statesman- I'm only 70 FFS-although I will admit to being on the cusp of middle age. I reckon to be considered an elder statesman you have to be 90 at least so I reckon Split Waterman qualifies as does Chuck Berry. Having said that I was in UK enjoying speedway only for the period 1964-68. However- I do agree with comments that Bjorn Knutsson was a giant of that period-I was privileged to see him win the World Title in 65 at my first visit to Wembley. I do miss the excitement of the one-off World Finals , although I accept that there were a few top guys who missed out winning due to engine failure etc. e.g. Dave Jessup, or falls e.g. Graham Warren, and others won only because it was held on their own "home" track e.g. Egon Muller imho Don't follow the current GP system-think its daft that you can become Champ without winning a single Grand Prix e.g. Mark Loram

As others have said this is a great thread with interesting lists from all and I have enjoyed reading the various erudite (that word again) postings. I undertake to contact Split and Chuck and ask them what they drink-I will share the findings with forumlanders so that we can all order a case of it!!! P.S. The last WF I attended was in L.A. in 1982-another great one!!

 

Now, now Bob Bath! Somebody will mention names like Tommy Price and Freddie Williams! Oops! That's just what I seem to have done!

Edited December 21, 2016 by Guest

[Sidney the robin]

Re Sidney the Robins' post on Dec 18th-while I appreciate being mentioned in the same breath as for example such luminaries as that young guy Norbold, et al., I must disagree that I am an elder statesman- I'm only 70 FFS-although I will admit to being on the cusp of middle age. I reckon to be considered an elder statesman you have to be 90 at least so I reckon Split Waterman qualifies as does Chuck Berry. Having said that I was in UK enjoying speedway only for the period 1964-68. However- I do agree with comments that Bjorn Knutsson was a giant of that period-I was privileged to see him win the World Title in 65 at my first visit to Wembley. I do miss the excitement of the one-off World Finals , although I accept that there were a few top guys who missed out winning due to engine failure etc. e.g. Dave Jessup, or falls e.g. Graham Warren, and others won only because it was held on their own "home" track e.g. Egon Muller imho Don't follow the current GP system-think its daft that you can become Champ without winning a single Grand Prix e.g. Mark Loram

As others have said this is a great thread with interesting lists from all and I have enjoyed reading the various erudite (that word again) postings. I undertake to contact Split and Chuck and ask them what they drink-I will share the findings with forumlanders so that we can all order a case of it!!! P.S. The last WF I attended was in L.A. in 1982-another great one!!

God you ent much older than me BOBBATH 😜anyway have a nice christmas.😂 Edited December 21, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[chunky]

 

An interesting list but no real use in regard to the search for the era 1969-1988 which is what this thread is trying to analyse.

Sincerest apologies for being "no real use" in your quest to analyse...

 

Steve

[Andrew]

69/88

I Mauger

O Olsen

Pe Collins

M Lee

D Jessup

C Morton

S Wigg

K Tatum

K Carter

P Crump

B Sanders

S Moran

K Moran

B Penhall

D Sigalos

S Ermolenko

H Nielsen

E Gundersen

Jo Pedersen

T Knudsen

89/16

H Nielsen

S Ermolenko

Jo Pedersen

P Jonsson

G Havelock

M Loram

T Rickardsson

J Crump

L Adams

G Hancock

B Hamill

N Pedersen

T Gollob

J Hampel

A Jonsson

N K Iversen

T Woffinden

C Holder

D Ward

E Sayfutdinov

[Guest]

When I said "BL era", I meant the years 1965-1990...

 

My list for that would be (in no order):

 

1 - Ivan Mauger

2 - Barry Briggs

3 - Bruce Penhall

4 - Ole Olsen

5 - Hans Nielsen

6 - Erik Gundersen

7 - Phil Crump

8 - Nigel Boocock

9 - Ken McKinlay

10 - Peter Collins

11 - Eric Boocock

12 - Michael Lee

13 - Malcolm Simmons

14 - Anders Michanek

15 - Kenny Carter

16 - Torbjorn Harrysson

17 - Gote Nordin

18 - Ray Wilson

19 - Dave Jessup

20 - Jim Airey

 

Honourable mentions for Morton (not Wal or Val), Sanders, Ashby, Knudsen, Autrey, Bengt Jansson, Shawn Moran, Sigalos, Louis, and Sjosten.

 

Steve

 

 

 

An interesting list but no real use in regard to the search for the era 1969-1988 which is what this thread is trying to analyse.

 

 

Sincerest apologies for being "no real use" in your quest to analyse...

 

Steve

 

I do owe you an apology by the look of things chunky. My response to your submission does indeed look that way.

I would reiterate - the list you provided for 1965-90 was extremely interesting and like other Posters I found it of great merit. All I was trying to say was that period you submitted does not allow for amalgamation in regard to that currently under debate which is 1969-88.

The hard and dedicated work that you obviously put in to compile your chart in to be commended and that fact is fully appreciated by myself.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Guest

[Sidney the robin]

Sincerest apologies for being "no real use" in your quest to analyse...

 

Steve

No Tommy J , Steve ? that surprised me as you love your Wimbledon Dons.I suppose it is you having an opinion without having your Bias head on unlike me concerning Martin Ashby eh!!😀😜 Edited December 22, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[chunky]

No Tommy J , Steve ? that surprised me as you love your Wimbledon Dons.I suppose it is you having an opinion without having your Bias head on unlike me concerning Martin Ashby eh!!

I do try to use my head rather than my heart, particularly when it involves a "genuine" contender like Tommy. Had he continued the form he was showing at the time of his tragic accident - even for two or three years - he would have been a definite on my list, but potential is a difficult thing to judge. Of course, after we lost Tommy, your boy Martin was the most popular rider at Plough Lane in 1976! Funny thing is that, while Tommy showed perhaps a little more brilliance in his short career, the longevity and consistency of Martin's career would realistically see him classed as "better" than Tommy - in MY opinion.

 

Steve

Edited December 22, 2016 by chunky

[Sidney the robin]

I do try to use my head rather than my heart, particularly when it involves a "genuine" contender like Tommy. Had he continued the form he was showing at the time of his tragic accident - even for two or three years - he would have been a definite on my list, but potential is a difficult thing to judge. Of course, after we lost Tommy, your boy Martin was the most popular rider at Plough Lane in 1976! Funny thing is that, while Tommy showed perhaps a little more brilliance in his short career, the longevity and consistency of Martin's career would realistically see him classed as "better" than Tommy - in MY opinion.

 

Steve

Tommy had real class and i am convinced he would of been a World Champion.To think he could of been still around in the late 80s/90s real class had everything.Chuffed i actually see him ride in the Helmet against crash and beat him in the decider at Cradley often. think what he could of achieved.?😀 Edited December 23, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[Guest]

The latest era discussed is for 1969-88. From the excellent rider lists so far submitted, has any member managed to devise a collective assessment for this era please?