The Greatest Riders

[Guest]

I would agree with gustix on this.Wasn't the scene at the time so disconnected and hard to tell who really was top as they weren't riding against each other on a regular basis.Hard even to know just who was the best dirt track rider in America.Jim Davis and Ralph Hepburn rode in Australia in 1924 and Eddie Brinck and maybe one or two others rode in 1926 for instance.Then in the early 30s Miny waln seemed to be the best or at least as good as Elder....

Significantly i haven't heard of any Australians doing the opposite trip and racing in the US.Sure i read somewhere that these trips were a promotional thing by the US manufacturers.Might be wrong on that though

 

I seem to have also read that the USA motorcycle manufacturers - Indian and Harley Davidson - sent riders to Australia to demonstrate their products. The resultant appearance of Americans on Australian dirt tracks was a development of that theme rather than Australian promoters inviting them to race there.

[norbold]

 

​I understand your point fully norbold, but basically this thread is supposed to have a worldwide concept. And I don't think that really happened until speedway/dirt track started in Britain in 1928? Then riders from a few different countries started to compete against each other and internationalism - for want of a better word - came into focus.

That's not the fault of the riders who were the best though and I think they should be recognised as the greats of their era. When racing started in 1928 in Britain, Huxley, Arthur, Johnson and a few others proved they were amongst the best and proved it against the Brits and Americans - really, even in the 30s that was the limit of the Internationalism of speedway plus the odd rider from other countries, but no real world wide opposition.

[Guest]

That's not the fault of the riders who were the best though and I think they should be recognised as the greats of their era. When racing started in 1928 in Britain, Huxley, Arthur, Johnson and a few others proved they were amongst the best and proved it against the Brits and Americans - really, even in the 30s that was the limit of the Internationalism of speedway plus the odd rider from other countries, but no real world wide opposition.

 

Fair enough comment. Let's sort out the remaining two periods under discussion, then we'll take a look at the pre-1928 era. However, if we dabble there, so far as the USA is concerned, will those riders competing in the 'dying days' of board tracks and also the dirt track stars be allowed consideration?

And pre-1928 for the UK - well that will most likely reveal Fay Taylor as the best of the Brits - (just maybe?).

Essentially at the moment, let's tidy up these two periods:

1969-1988

1989- to present times

Edited December 20, 2016 by Guest

[waiheke1]

We have three lists for 69-88, though only one ranks riders in order. Perhaps the starting point is riders common to all three lists? I'd suggest also that Mauger olsen penhall nielsen gundersen Collins lee Michanek would be a more or less unanimous top 8, with just the order subject to debate?

[Guest]

We have three lists for 69-88, though only one ranks riders in order. Perhaps the starting point is riders common to all three lists? I'd suggest also that Mauger olsen penhall nielsen gundersen Collins lee Michanek would be a more or less unanimous top 8, with just the order subject to debate?

 

An excellent suggestion - in the fullness of time! Looking at your message, the priority still appears to need to be centred on tidying up the years 1969-88?

[waiheke1]

Briggs Jan o pedersen and s moran then seem to be the other riders common to all three lists.

Carter ermolenko sigalos sanders jessup Simmons p crump b jansson all appear on two lists.

That would give us 19 with one spot left to fill. And I'd be tempted to give that to Muller, who appeared only on Gustix list, but as a world champ include him ahead of the other "one vote" riders.

So that's 20, just need to sort them.

[Guest]

Briggs Jan o pedersen and s moran then seem to be the other riders common to all three lists.

Carter ermolenko sigalos sanders jessup Simmons p crump b jansson all appear on two lists.

That would give us 19 with one spot left to fill. And I'd be tempted to give that to Muller, who appeared only on Gustix list, but as a world champ include him ahead of the other "one vote" riders.

So that's 20, just need to sort them.

 

...and that could prove a major task - something in the domain of our friend BL65 maybe?

[waiheke1]

If you use that approach then I can only see five times world champ(in that period) Mauger being top, followed by nielsen who would likely top the rankings from 83-88. Then I assume olsen and gundersen (or vice versa) and Peter Collins. Lee and Michanek would likely follow, while penhall would likely have two firsts, one second from his three years as a world class rider.

I have top 10 ststistical rankings for the years 80-88 which could be a starting point, can dig them out tomorrow.

[iris123]

It shows what a trcky topic it is.Do you go with the longevity/amount of honours won or do we go with talent shown?If you give points for every title and position in the league averages then generally the rider who rode at the top longest whilst avoiding injury is going to amass more points than someone like Penhall or Farndon who for ne reason or another had a short period at the top....

[waiheke1]

 

It shows what a trcky topic it is.Do you go with the longevity/amount of honours won or do we go with talent shown?If you give points for every title and position in the league averages then generally the rider who rode at the top longest whilst avoiding injury is going to amass more points than someone like Penhall or Farndon who for ne reason or another had a short period at the top....

Personally if going subjectively, then a combo of both (hence penhall is high on my list, but I also included someone like mort for longevity). If going a stats based approach, I would rate it in peak 5 seasons or something like that, rather than a cumulative approach over the decades. Edited December 20, 2016 by waihekeaces1

[Sidney the robin]

It shows what a trcky topic it is.Do you go with the longevity/amount of honours won or do we go with talent shown?If you give points for every title and position in the league averages then generally the rider who rode at the top longest whilst avoiding injury is going to amass more points than someone like Penhall or Farndon who for ne reason or another had a short period at the top....

This is where it is tricky Pedersen being a prime example he has three titles how many of us would rate him on par with Olsen.? I wouldn't rate him anywhere near but we should really because Pedersen won three titles in a tough era.Havelock,Lee,Loram, again another example all won a title but was Lee/Loram in reality in a different league to Havvy.? For me doing lists is near impossible most of it down to just personnal opinion and as you say Longevity plays a big part of it.

[waiheke1]

I'd say lee was in a different league to Loram and havvy. The latter two I would say are similar, though I would give Loram the edge.

Pedersen I think is commonly regarded as the worst three time world champ ever, but must still rank in the top 16 post war riders imo.

[Sidney the robin]

I'd say lee was in a different league to Loram and havvy. The latter two I would say are similar, though I would give Loram the edge.

Pedersen I think is commonly regarded as the worst three time world champ ever, but must still rank in the top 16 post war riders imo.

Lee do we rate him more because of his natural ability and talent rather than what he actually achieved.? His top class career in reality was very brief 77/83 so Longevity was not a plus for him.But when i think about it the Lee i saw would have to be in a top 20 riders that i ever saw.In 83 for a couple of months he was awesome what a shame for us supporters that it all went pearshape for him.

[iris123]

Lee do we rate him more because of his natural ability and talent rather than what he actually achieved.? His top class career in reality was very brief 77/83 so Longevity was not a plus for him.But when i think about it the Lee i saw would have to be in a top 20 riders that i ever saw.In 83 for a couple of months he was awesome what a shame for us supporters that it all went pearshape for him.

Spot on Sid.Also look at Bjorn Knutson,who is a bit of a mystery man for me.Never really read much about him,but looking at BL65's list he was right up near the top for a few years.Then when you look at his stats,he only started(if i have this right)in 1957 and by 1961 was second in the world and gave the sport up in 1966.So only a 10 year career and what a record.....

 

Individual world title and 2 silvers,plus 4 WTC gold medals,2 silvers and a bronze!!!

Edited December 20, 2016 by iris123

[Sidney the robin]

Spot on Sid.Also look at Bjorn Knutson,who is a bit of a mystery man for me.Never really read much about him,but looking at BL65's list he was right up near the top for a few years.Then when you look at his stats,he only started(if i have this right)in 1957 and by 1961 was second in the world and gave the sport up in 1966.So only a 10 year career and what a record.....

 

Individual world title and 2 silvers,plus 4 WTC gold medals,2 silvers and a bronze!!!

My uncle who first took me to speedway often raved about him and that was coming from someone who was a Briggo supporter.Norbold, Bobbath, BL ( ect)people who's opinions i really respect have all said Knutsson COULD of won more titles a class act.

[Guest]

MY TOP 20 (1969/88)( No order)

Briggs

,Olsen,

Mauger,

Michanek,

Lee,

Collins,

Nielsen,

Gundersen ,

Penhall,

Ermolenko,

Simmons,

P.Crump,

Carter,

S.Moran,

T.Jansson,

Sanders,

Sigalos,

Autrey,

J.O.Pedersen,

R.Wilson.

If i had a guess i recon out of the 20 i named Sanders,Sigalos,R.Wilson,Carter,Autrey might not be in some peoples list.

 

 

1969-1988

1. Ivan Mauger

2. Hans Nielsen

3. Ole Olsen

4. Bruce Penhall

5. Eric Gundersen

6. PeterCollins

7. Mike Lee

8. Anders Michanek

9. Dave Jessup

10. Kenny Carter

11. Barry Briggs

12. Malcolm Simmons

13. Shaun Moran

14. Soren sjosten

15. Jan Oswald Pedersen

16. Phil Crump

17. Chris Morton

18 Dennis Sigalos

19. Tommy Knudsen

20. Bengt Jansson

 

 

:::: This is my list with delete lines for Bjorn Knutsson and Billy Hamill. Now only 18 suggestions by me.

 

The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order:

​Ivan Mauger

Egon Muller

Barry Briggs

Bengt Jansson

Ole Olsen

Billy Hamill

Peter Collins

Sam Ermolenko

Bjorn Knutsson

Kenny Carter

Hans Nielsen

Dave Jessup

Erik Gundersen

Simon Wigg

Bruce Penhall

Bobby Schwartz

Michael Lee

Billy Sanders

Jan O Pedersen

Bo Petersen

 

 

 

I feel more relaxed than earlier today over my list for 1969-98.

As I have removed Billy Hamill and Bjorn Knutsson. I would like to replace them to make up 20 riders with --

 

Anders Michanek,

​Shawn Moran.

 

::: These appear to be the only detailed nominations for the 1969-88 period? I wonder how the riders would equate if combined into one list as for the 1928-48 period. Any volunteers to do this?

[The White Knight]

This really is a cracking Thread. I am enjoying reading it immensely.

 

Great to see folk who really know their subject discussing things iin a civilised manner.

 

My respect to all of you for your knowledge which on this subject, if I am totally honest, is far superior to mine.

[chunky]

This really is a cracking Thread. I am enjoying reading it immensely.

 

Great to see folk who really know their subject discussing things iin a civilised manner.

 

My respect to all of you for your knowledge which on this subject, if I am totally honest, is far superior to mine.

Dont sell yourself short! Remember that "knowledge" (like this) is generally something people have wanted to learn because of their interest, and that interest leads to us forming opinions. Plus, a lot of the stuff we "know" is not actually "knowledge"; it is simply a case of knowing where to look for the answers!

 

Steve

[chunky]

So, here's my list from 1969-1988 (in no particular order)...

 

1 - Barry Briggs

2 - Ole Olsen
3 - Ivan Mauger
4 - Anders Michanek
5 - Erik Gundersen
6 - Hans Nielsen

7 - Peter Collins

8 - Kenny Carter

9 - Shawn Moran
10 - Bruce Penhall

11 - Michael Lee

 

All of these were named by gustix, Sidney, and waihekeaces1, so no arguments there... The one rider voted by all three that I omitted was Jan O. Pedersen; I simply felt that he still hadn't established himself at the VERY top by 1988.

 

12 - Malcolm Simmons

13 - Billy Sanders

14 - Dave Jessup

15 - Dennis Sigalos

16 - Phil Crump

 

These five were named by two of the three voters.

 

17 - Scott Autrey
18 - Chris Morton

 

Both received a single vote.

 

19 - John Louis
20 - Eric Boocock

 

My two additions. Louis was not only one of the dominant forces in British speedway, but had some international highlights also. The younger Boocock's domestic form was quite simply superb, and his figures stood up against those of Mauger, Briggo, or whoever.

 

Steve

[Sidney the robin]

So, here's my list from 1969-1988 (in no particular order)...

 

1 - Barry Briggs

2 - Ole Olsen

3 - Ivan Mauger

4 - Anders Michanek

5 - Erik Gundersen

6 - Hans Nielsen

7 - Peter Collins

8 - Kenny Carter

9 - Shawn Moran

10 - Bruce Penhall

11 - Michael Lee

 

All of these were named by gustix, Sidney, and waihekeaces1, so no arguments there... The one rider voted by all three that I omitted was Jan O. Pedersen; I simply felt that he still hadn't established himself at the VERY top by 1988.

 

12 - Malcolm Simmons

13 - Billy Sanders

14 - Dave Jessup

15 - Dennis Sigalos

16 - Phil Crump

 

These five were named by two of the three voters.

 

17 - Scott Autrey

18 - Chris Morton

 

Both received a single vote.

 

19 - John Louis

20 - Eric Boocock

 

My two additions. Louis was not only one of the dominant forces in British speedway, but had some international highlights also. The younger Boocock's domestic form was quite simply superb, and his figures stood up against those of Mauger, Briggo, or whoever.

 

Steve

Would be proud to have that as my list Steve , Boocock who i was a massive fan of does deserve to be in it .You are right his British career was superb and was rounded off with a brilliant British Final win against a peak field.

Dont sell yourself short! Remember that "knowledge" (like this) is generally something people have wanted to learn because of their interest, and that interest leads to us forming opinions. Plus, a lot of the stuff we "know" is not actually "knowledge"; it is simply a case of knowing where to look for the answers!

 

Steve

Spot on Steve INTEREST is the key word, as you said TWK 's opinion is as valid and has as much substance as anyone else's .Since coming on the forum i have learned more from people on here than anywhere else brilliant to hear other people's stories and opinions.😀 Edited December 21, 2016 by Sidney the robin