Sidney the robin Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order: Ivan Mauger Egon Muller Barry Briggs Bengt Jansson Ole Olsen Billy Hamill Peter Collins Sam Ermolenko Bjorn Knutsson Kenny Carter Hans Nielsen Dave Jessup Erik Gundersen Simon Wigg Bruce Penhall Bobby Schwartz Michael Lee Billy Sanders Jan O Pedersen Bo Petersen ::: For me it's now retire to dark corner and watch the flak fly! A good list Hamill,Muller,Petersen, Wigg,Schwartz are one's i would query.?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 69-98 hamill would be included for sure. But 69-88? He was an 18 year old, who had achieved what by 88? He hadn't won an American title, represented his country in a major international event? What demonstration of his talent ate you using to include him ahead of say the moran brothers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 69-98 hamill would be included for sure. But 69-88? He was an 18 year old, who had achieved what by 88? He hadn't won an American title, represented his country in a major international event? What demonstration of his talent ate you using to include him ahead of say the moran brothers? I can't be bothered to have a complex debate. I surrender to you.I will put a delete line through Billy Hamill. Continuing debates with 'seemingly everyone on the BSF' are beginning to demoralise me. That will decrease my nominations to 18 now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 In your haste to denigrate my Post you failed to note that I said == "The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order:" Where have I said anything about the order? I've queried the inclusion of some riders above others who haven't made the list. Seems Sidney has queried most of the same.I was in no way denigrating your list, though hamill and knuttson were both bizarre inclusions. Perhaps you could justify the more borderline inclusions rather than getting defensive? I'd say there are maybe 10 riders who would make most lists, the last 10 very subjective (for example I left out j Louis, muller,persson, jansson, Sanders, n Boocock, r Wilson, ermolenko, k moran, wigg, tatum who all had some claim for inclusion). Can't say Petersen or Schwartz would make my top 20 of the 80s, let alone that expanded era. I can't be bothered to have a complex debate. I surrender to you.I will put a delete line through Billy Hamill. Continuing debates with 'seemingly everyone on the BSF' are beginning to demoralise me. That will decrease my nominations to 18 now. Surely the interesting part is having discussions, not just everyone agreeing. If you make astonishing omissions, such as plechanov and Jack young ftom your first list of 49-68, or left field inclusions like hamill (or Mike bast on that other thread) then they will be queried. In which case you can either man up and admit you made a mistake, or take your ball home. More than happy for you to pull apart my list. And just to add: surely Michanek should be in the top 20, without a doubt the 4th best rider of the 70s imo. Certainly a better one-time champ than muller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Where have I said anything about the order? I've queried the inclusion of some riders above others who haven't made the list. Seems Sidney has queried most of the same. I was in no way denigrating your list, though hamill and knuttson were both bizarre inclusions. Perhaps you could justify the more borderline inclusions rather than getting defensive? I'd say there are maybe 10 riders who would make most lists, the last 10 very subjective (for example I left out j Louis, muller,persson, jansson, Sanders, n Boocock, r Wilson, ermolenko, k moran, wigg, tatum who all had some claim for inclusion). Can't say Petersen or Schwartz would make my top 20 of the 80s, let alone that expanded era. Surely the interesting part is having discussions, not just everyone agreeing. If you make astonishing omissions, such as plechanov and Jack young ftom your first list of 49-68, or left field inclusions like hamill (or Mike bast on that other thread) then they will be queried. In which case you can either man up and admit you made a mistake, or take your ball home. More than happy for you to pull apart my list. And just to add: surely Michanek should be in the top 20, without a doubt the 4th best rider of the 70s imo. Certainly a better one-time champ than muller. How I now regret ever starting this thread. It has badly back-fired on me. Enough-is-enough for me. And as I said + I can't be bothered to have a complex debate. I surrender to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 It's an excellent thread. But to be clear - you just wanted people to post their lists and noone comment on them? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BL65 Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 I have just logged in carefully studied message 103 sent by BL65 which details his views on the rider ratings for the 1949-68 period. I only have one word to describe it - superb. Thank you Gustix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Oh dear!! Will Norbold start a new thread for another two forum members? No,just joking.It is all opinions,apart from when a mistake is made and a rider has hardly ridden in a certain period.I asked BL65 about Charlie Monk in 1965 and he gave a good explanation.Still sort of think Monk should be in the top 10 for that year,but at least convinced Plechanov deserves to be above him.No big deal and no theatrics about it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) :::: This is my list with delete lines for Bjorn Knutsson and Billy Hamill. Now only 18 suggestions by me. The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order: Ivan Mauger Egon Muller Barry Briggs Bengt Jansson Ole Olsen Billy Hamill Peter Collins Sam Ermolenko Bjorn Knutsson Kenny Carter Hans Nielsen Dave Jessup Erik Gundersen Simon Wigg Bruce Penhall Bobby Schwartz Michael Lee Billy Sanders Jan O Pedersen Bo Petersen Edited December 19, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 :::: This is my list with delete lines for Bjorn Knutsson and Billy Hamill. Now only 18 suggestions by me. Don't listen to 'em, mate; I still think Knutsson should be included in your list! The fact that he never rode during that period is inconsequential... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) :::: This is my list with delete lines for Bjorn Knutsson and Billy Hamill. Now only 18 suggestions by me. The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order: Ivan Mauger Egon Muller Barry Briggs Bengt Jansson Ole Olsen Billy Hamill Peter Collins Sam Ermolenko Bjorn Knutsson Kenny Carter Hans Nielsen Dave Jessup Erik Gundersen Simon Wigg Bruce Penhall Bobby Schwartz Michael Lee Billy Sanders Jan O Pedersen Bo Petersen I feel more relaxed than earlier today over my list for 1969-98. As I have removed Billy Hamill and Bjorn Knutsson. I would like to replace them to make up 20 riders with -- Anders Michanek, Shawn Moran. Edited December 19, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 I feel more relaxed than earlier today over my list for 1969-98. As I have removed Billy Hamill and Bjorn Knutsson. I would like to replace them to make up 20 riders with -- Anders Michanek, Shawn Moran. Is it 69-98 or 69-88?If the former, I'd stick Hamill back in! If the latter, a couple of good additions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Is it 69-98 or 69-88? If the former, I'd stick Hamill back in! If the latter, a couple of good additions. I fear it is all getting a bit confusing...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Is it 69-98 or 69-88? If the former, I'd stick Hamill back in! If the latter, a couple of good additions. I fear it is all getting a bit confusing...... These were the designated eras as shown in Message 9 dated December 15, 2016: lists of Top 20 riders in different eras. 1928-48 1949-1968 1969-1988 1989- to present times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) Billy Hamill included on the emergence of talent he was showing in the USA at the time. This is supposed to be a worldwide analysis NOT just based on the British League. Gustix, quick question. Why did you start in 1928 then? Speedway did not start in 1928. It's difficult to pinpoint exactly, but around 1924 seems to be the starting point (I don't think West Maitland in December 1923 was speedway). Why not make it all a bit easier: Top 20s from: The 20s and 30s The 40s and 50s The 60s and 70s The 80s and 90s 2000 onwards All the best Rob Edited December 19, 2016 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) Gustix, quick question. Why did you start in 1928 then? Speedway did not start in 1928. It's difficult to pinpoint exactly, but around 1924 seems to be the starting point (I don't think West Maitland in December 1923 was speedway). All the best Rob I was wondering the same,especially as gustix has stated it is not just a British based form thing Possibly the difficulty in getting good results to compare Edited December 19, 2016 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 19, 2016 Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) Gustix, quick question. Why did you start in 1928 then? Speedway did not start in 1928. It's difficult to pinpoint exactly, but around 1924 seems to be the starting point (I don't think West Maitland in December 1923 was speedway). Why not make it all a bit easier: Top 20s from: The 20s and 30s The 40s and 50s The 60s and 70s The 80s and 90s 2000 onwards All the best Rob That's an interesting comment Rob. As iris123 points out, details of speedway happenings prior to 1928 are very sketchy - aside from Australia it is hard to find details in regard to places where there was SOME activity - the USA, New Zealand and sometimes possibly in Argentina and South Africa. IMO the real international side of speedway coincided with the meeting at High Beech aka King's Oak in February 1928. After that speedway (Dirt Track racing) brought together riders from Britain, Australia and the USA. The sport suddenly evolved from something akin to guys poodling around low standard dirt tracks to organised racing in stadiums. From that came the recognised keeping of statistics and results - the key to defining who the top riders were.This was a reason I decided to use 1928 as the landmark start for this thread. I do like your post however Rob and maybe when we have researched the present FOUR eras that are basic to this thread, we can try to look back to "what happened before 1928' - except there will be no British activity save for Camberley in 1927 and another venue around the same time in the north of England - the name of the place escapes me at the moment. Rob - how are your own records in regard to dirt track racing say from 1923 to late 1927 in other parts of the world? Do I feel that yu have made your suggestion because you have such data available? However, I think the era dates already set out for this thread do coincide very much with the periods you suggest? They are - lists of Top 20 riders in different eras. The 20s and 30s The 40s and 50s The 60s and 70s The 80s and 90s 2000 onwards This thread is dedicated to - 1928-48 1949-1968 1969-1988 1989- to present times Edited December 20, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 There is enough evidence from Australia to show who were the top riders in Australia pre-1928, riders like Frank Arthur, Vic Huxley, Charlie Datson, Ron Johnson, Ben Unwin and Hilary Buchanan for example plus the American Sprouts Elder. Of those the outstanding riders were Frank Arthur and Vic Huxley. Vic Huxley, of course, continued into the 1930s and is a strong contender for any Top 20 of the 1920s and 30s. Frank Arthur's best days were probably in the period up to 1929 and missed out on the 30s, so normally doesn't get a look in in these sort of lists, but I would say he was probably no.1 in the 1920s itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 (edited) There is enough evidence from Australia to show who were the top riders in Australia pre-1928, riders like Frank Arthur, Vic Huxley, Charlie Datson, Ron Johnson, Ben Unwin and Hilary Buchanan for example plus the American Sprouts Elder. Of those the outstanding riders were Frank Arthur and Vic Huxley. Vic Huxley, of course, continued into the 1930s and is a strong contender for any Top 20 of the 1920s and 30s. Frank Arthur's best days were probably in the period up to 1929 and missed out on the 30s, so normally doesn't get a look in in these sort of lists, but I would say he was probably no.1 in the 1920s itself. I understand your point fully norbold, but basically this thread is supposed to have a worldwide concept. And I don't think that really happened until speedway/dirt track started in Britain in 1928? Then riders from a few different countries started to compete against each other and internationalism - for want of a better word - came into focus. Edited December 20, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 (edited) I understand your point fully nor bold, but basically this thread is supposed to have a worldwide concept. And I don't think that really happened until speedway/dirt track started in Britain in 1928? Then riders from a few different countries started to compete against each other and internationalism - for want of a better word - came not focus. I would agree with gustix on this.Wasn't the scene at the time so disconnected and hard to tell who really was top as they weren't riding against each other on a regular basis.Hard even to know just who was the best dirt track rider in America.Jim Davis and Ralph Hepburn rode in Australia in 1924 and Eddie Brinck and maybe one or two others rode in 1926 for instance.Then in the early 30s Miny waln seemed to be the best or at least as good as Elder.... Significantly i haven't heard of any Australians doing the opposite trip and racing in the US.Sure i read somewhere that these trips were a promotional thing by the US manufacturers.Might be wrong on that though Edited December 20, 2016 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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