The Greatest Riders

[iris123]

Over the years when there were second half races with qualifying heats and a final, it was often suggested that the prize money for the final would be shared but the riders would still race for finishing places.

That woud make sense.I myself once overheard two riders who were in a run-off for a low key championship deciding to share the prize money and go out and give an "exhibition" race in that run-off.They went around popping wheelies and riding side by side.One set of fans thought it the greatest thing they had ever seen.Another set thought it was a disgrace and they had been robbed of seeing the meeting decided by a real race.....

Edited December 18, 2016 by iris123

[The White Knight]

Much harder i would say.If someone is enough points ahead of his nearest opponent then there is no need to pay anyone to lose etc.In such a short meeting of 20 heats there is more opportunity/need,i would say.So much so,that this year the Champ didn't even need to complete the final meeting.A disgrace of another sort imo and robbing the fans of a proper finale.Could almost equate that with paying riders off.....

 

The only time i have heard of any deals was in the Gelsenkirchen big money final,when the 4 finalists supposedly agreed to share the prize money before the race.But that wasn't a deal to win a title.Whereas there are quite a number of stories from the 1930s through to the 80s at least of payments being made in one-off world finals

I agree that you have some good arguments in favour of the current System iris123.

 

I just thought that the Qualifying Rounds and the 'One Off' World Final were far more exciting. As Speedway is in the Entertainment Business I think that excitement is what it should all be about.

 

I did, however, long ago give up on expecting the Sport to change back. There is far too much money involved these days and that, crucially, is what is cutting the throat of British Speedway.

[BL65]

The original question on this thread was about the greatest rider over a specified period, which is always a matter of opinion as opponents, machinery, tracks and riding styles change over time. Having considered who were the most dominant riders each year, my opinion on each season from 1949 to 1968 is shown. From this, by awarding 10 points for first position in each season down to 1 point for tenth position I have then compiled a list based on the totals over the period of time concerned. My selections have regard to season long achievement, not just for performance in the world championship, although this is taken into account.

 

1949 Vic Duggan, Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Tommy Price, Wilbur Lamoreaux, Aub Lawson, Norman Parker, Dent Oliver, Ron Clarke, Louis Lawson

1950 Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Tommy Price, Norman Parker, Cyril Roger, Aub Lawson, Louis Lawson, Vic Duggan, Freddie Williams, Wally Green

1951 Ronnie Moore, Aub Lawson, Jack Young, Alan Hunt, Freddie Williams, Eddie Rigg, Norman Parker, Jack Biggs, Split Waterman, Jack Parker

1952 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Alan Hunt, Split Waterman, Freddie Williams, Tommy Price, Bob Leverenz, Henry Long, Cyril Brine, Geoff Mardon

1953 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Olle Nygren, Split Waterman, Arthur Forrest, Alan Hunt, Freddie Williams, Geoff Mardon, Tommy Price, Aub Lawson

1954 Ronnie Moore, Brian Crutcher, Jack Young, Olle Nygren, Eddie Rigg, Arthur Forrest, Geoff Mardon, Barry Briggs, Split Waterman, Alan Hunt

1955 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Brian Crutcher, Peter Craven, Olle Nygren, Arthur Wright, Arthur Forrest,Ron Johnston

1956 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Barry Briggs, Brian Crutcher, Per Olaf Soderman, Peter Moore, Alan Hunt, Arthur Forrest, Jack Biggs

1957 Peter Craven, Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Bob Roger, Ron Johnston, Ron How, Ken McKinlay, Aub Lawson, Brian Crutcher, Rune Sormander

1958 Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Peter Craven, Ken McKinlay, Brian Crutcher, Ronnie Moore, Jack Young Aub Lawson, Olle Nygren, Ron How

1959 Ronnie Moore, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Peter Craven, Ken McKinlay, Olle Nygren, Brian Crutcher, Ron How, Peter Moore, Geoff Mardon

1960 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Ken McKinlay, Arne Pander, Peter Moore, Stefan Kwoczala, Rune Sormander

1961 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Gote Nordin, Arne Pander, Florian Kapala, Rune Sormander, Ron How

1962 Peter Craven, Ronnie Moore, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Gote Nordin, Ron How, Ken McKinlay, Igor Plechanov,Bob Andrews

1963 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Boris Samorodov, Gote Nordin, Ron How, Sverre Harrfeldt, Ken McKinlay

1964 Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Igor Plechanov, Bjorn Knutson, Boris Samorodov, Ken McKinlay, Ron How, Arne Pander, Nigel Boocock, Gote Nordin

1965 Bjorn Knutson, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Igor Plechanov, Nigel Boocock, Ken McKinlay, Ron How, Arne Pander, Bengt Jansson, Sverre Harrfeldt

1966 Barry Briggs, Bjorn Knutson, Ove Fundin, Gote Nordin, Sverre Harrfeldt, Igor Plechanov, Antoni Woryna, Nigel Boocock, Ivan Mauger, Arne Pander

1967 Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Gote Nordin, Bengt Jansson, Ivan Mauger, Igor Plechanov, Nigel Boocock, Anders Michanek, Ray Wilson, Antoni Woryna

1968 Ivan Mauger, Barry Briggs, Edward Jancarz, Torbjorn Harrysson, Anders Michanek, Ove Fundin, Nigel Boocock, Martin Ashby, Ray Wilson, Bengt Jansson

 

Based on the above selections, the top 20 for the whole period is:

1. Ove Fundin 121

2. Barry Briggs 115

3. Ronnie Moore 110

4. Peter Craven 72

5. Bjorn Knutson 54

6. Jack Young 47

7. Ken McKinlay 36

8. Brian Crutcher 33

9. Gote Nordin 30

10. Igor Plechanov 27

11= Aub Lawson 26

11= Olle Nygren 26

13= Alan Hunt 25

13= Ron How 25

15= Graham Warren 19

15= Nigel Boocock 19

17= Jack Parker 18

17= Freddie Williams 18

17= Split Waterman 18

17= Ivan Mauger 18

 

Of course, this list could have been very different, but for the tragic loss of Alan Hunt and Peter Craven, serious injuries to Ronnie Moore, Graham Warren, Ron How, Arne Pander and Stefan Kwoczala, the early retiirement of Brian Crutcher and seasons opted out of British speedway by Ronnie Moore and Ivan Mauger.

 

The outcome would also be somewhat different according to the timescale selected. In my selections Ronnie Moore was well ahead from 1951 to 1963, whereas Ove Fundin's era of greater domination was 1955 to 1967.

Edited December 18, 2016 by BL65

[The White Knight]

A superb bit of scholarship BL65.

 

That must have taken some compiling and working out.

 

Very good Post and WELL DONE. :approve:

[iris123]

Is an excellent piece of work.I do wonder why Charlie Monk,who had a super season in 1965 doesn't make the top 10.But the end result is pretty conclusive.Good to see Nordin in instead of Lammy as i suggested

[BL65]

A superb bit of scholarship BL65.

 

That must have taken some compiling and working out.

 

Very good Post and WELL DONE. :approve:

Thank you White Knight. Part compiled from memory, but thank goodness for record books, programmes, magazines, the Speedway Researcher website and various other online sources, all of which provide a wonderful reminder.

Is an excellent piece of work.I do wonder why Charlie Monk,who had a super season in 1965 doesn't make the top 10.But the end result is pretty conclusive.Good to see Nordin in instead of Lammy as i suggested

I decided to restrict the year lists to the top ten. Charlie was actually number 11 for 1965 in my longer list.

[Sidney the robin]

The original question on this thread was about the greatest rider over a specified period, which is always a matter of opinion as opponents, machinery, tracks and riding styles change over time. Having considered who were the most dominant riders each year, my opinion on each season from 1949 to 1968 is shown. From this, by awarding 10 points for first position in each season down to 1 point for tenth position I have then compiled a list based on the totals over the period of time concerned. My selections have regard to season long achievement, not just for performance in the world championship, although this is taken into account.

 

1949 Vic Duggan, Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Tommy Price, Wilbur Lamoreaux, Aub Lawson, Norman Parker, Dent Oliver, Ron Clarke, Louis Lawson

1950 Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Tommy Price, Norman Parker, Cyril Roger, Aub Lawson, Louis Lawson, Vic Duggan, Freddie Williams, Wally Green

1951 Ronnie Moore, Aub Lawson, Jack Young, Alan Hunt, Freddie Williams, Eddie Rigg, Norman Parker, Jack Biggs, Split Waterman, Jack Parker

1952 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Alan Hunt, Split Waterman, Freddie Williams, Tommy Price, Bob Leverenz, Henry Long, Cyril Brine, Geoff Mardon

1953 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Olle Nygren, Split Waterman, Arthur Forrest, Alan Hunt, Freddie Williams, Geoff Mardon, Tommy Price, Aub Lawson

1954 Ronnie Moore, Brian Crutcher, Jack Young, Olle Nygren, Eddie Rigg, Arthur Forrest, Geoff Mardon, Barry Briggs, Split Waterman, Alan Hunt

1955 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Brian Crutcher, Peter Craven, Olle Nygren, Arthur Wright, Arthur Forrest,Ron Johnston

1956 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Barry Briggs, Brian Crutcher, Per Olaf Soderman, Peter Moore, Alan Hunt, Arthur Forrest, Jack Biggs

1957 Peter Craven, Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Bob Roger, Ron Johnston, Ron How, Ken McKinlay, Aub Lawson, Brian Crutcher, Rune Sormander

1958 Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Peter Craven, Ken McKinlay, Brian Crutcher, Ronnie Moore, Jack Young Aub Lawson, Olle Nygren, Ron How

1959 Ronnie Moore, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Peter Craven, Ken McKinlay, Olle Nygren, Brian Crutcher, Ron How, Peter Moore, Geoff Mardon

1960 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Ken McKinlay, Arne Pander, Peter Moore, Stefan Kwoczala, Rune Sormander

1961 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Gote Nordin, Arne Pander, Florian Kapala, Rune Sormander, Ron How

1962 Peter Craven, Ronnie Moore, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Gote Nordin, Ron How, Ken McKinlay, Igor Plechanov,Bob Andrews

1963 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Boris Samorodov, Gote Nordin, Ron How, Sverre Harrfeldt, Ken McKinlay

1964 Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Igor Plechanov, Bjorn Knutson, Boris Samorodov, Ken McKinlay, Ron How, Arne Pander, Nigel Boocock, Gote Nordin

1965 Bjorn Knutson, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Igor Plechanov, Nigel Boocock, Ken McKinlay, Ron How, Arne Pander, Bengt Jansson, Sverre Harrfeldt

1966 Barry Briggs, Bjorn Knutson, Ove Fundin, Gote Nordin, Sverre Harrfeldt, Igor Plechanov, Antoni Woryna, Nigel Boocock, Ivan Mauger, Arne Pander

1967 Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Gote Nordin, Bengt Jansson, Ivan Mauger, Igor Plechanov, Nigel Boocock, Anders Michanek, Ray Wilson, Antoni Woryna

1968 Ivan Mauger, Barry Briggs, Edward Jancarz, Torbjorn Harrysson, Anders Michanek, Ove Fundin, Nigel Boocock, Martin Ashby, Ray Wilson, Bengt Jansson

 

Based on the above selections, the top 20 for the whole period is:

1. Ove Fundin 121

2. Barry Briggs 115

3. Ronnie Moore 110

4. Peter Craven 72

5. Bjorn Knutson 54

6. Jack Young 47

7. Ken McKinlay 36

8. Brian Crutcher 33

9. Gote Nordin 30

10. Igor Plechanov 27

11= Aub Lawson 26

11= Olle Nygren 26

13= Alan Hunt 25

13= Ron How 25

15. Jack Parker 23

16= Graham Warren 19

16= Nigel Boocock 19

18= Freddie Williams 18

18= Split Waterman 18

18= Ivan Mauger 18

 

Of course, this list could have been very different, but for the tragic loss of Alan Hunt and Peter Craven, serious injuries to Ronnie Moore, Graham Warren, Ron How, Arne Pander and Stefan Kwoczala, as well as the early retiirement of Brian Crutcher and seasons opted out of British speedway by Ronnie Moore and Ivan Mauger.

 

The outcome would also be somewhat different according to the timescale selected. In my selections Ronnie Moore was well ahead from 1951 to 1963, whereas Ove Fundin's era of greater domination was 1955 to 1967.

Great stuff BL really enjoyed that i love this section learn a bit and sometimes keep out of trouble.😜😆 Edited December 18, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[iris123]

Thank you White Knight. Part compiled from memory, but thank goodness for record books, programmes, magazines, the Speedway Researcher website and various other online sources, all of which provide a wonderful reminder.

I decided to restrict the year lists to the top ten. Charlie was actually number 11 for 1965 in my longer list.

Guess it is very weighted towards the world final?I mean Charlie was on 10.28 from 40 meetings in the league and won all his quali meetings up to the British Final when he was controversially excluded and also won the Internationale at Wimbledon.How many meetings have you then used to judge someone like Plechanov,who never won a quali meeting in the run up to the world final and got beat by Monk in the WTC.Just asking rather than arguing mind

[norbold]

The original question on this thread was about the greatest rider over a specified period, which is always a matter of opinion as opponents, machinery, tracks and riding styles change over time. Having considered who were the most dominant riders each year, my opinion on each season from 1949 to 1968 is shown. From this, by awarding 10 points for first position in each season down to 1 point for tenth position I have then compiled a list based on the totals over the period of time concerned. My selections have regard to season long achievement, not just for performance in the world championship, although this is taken into account.

 

1949 Vic Duggan, Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Tommy Price, Wilbur Lamoreaux, Aub Lawson, Norman Parker, Dent Oliver, Ron Clarke, Louis Lawson

1950 Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Tommy Price, Norman Parker, Cyril Roger, Aub Lawson, Louis Lawson, Vic Duggan, Freddie Williams, Wally Green

1951 Ronnie Moore, Aub Lawson, Jack Young, Alan Hunt, Freddie Williams, Eddie Rigg, Norman Parker, Jack Biggs, Split Waterman, Jack Parker

1952 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Alan Hunt, Split Waterman, Freddie Williams, Tommy Price, Bob Leverenz, Henry Long, Cyril Brine, Geoff Mardon

1953 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Olle Nygren, Split Waterman, Arthur Forrest, Alan Hunt, Freddie Williams, Geoff Mardon, Tommy Price, Aub Lawson

Great piece of work BL.

 

It's interesting to compare your Top 10s for the early years with the Stenner Rankings for those years.

 

1949: Jack Parker, Aub Lawson, Tommy Price, Vic Duggan, Wilbur Lamoreaux, Graham Warren, Jack Biggs, Norman Parker, Bill Gilbert, Dent Oliver

1950: Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Aub Lawson, Tommy Price, Ken Le Breton, Fred Williams, Cyril Roger, Norman Parker, Cyril Brine, Eric French

1951: Jack Young, Split Waterman, Aub Lawson, Ronnie Moore, Olle Nygren, Fred Williams, Jack Parker, Eddie Rigg, Alan Hunt, Jack Biggs

1952: Jack Young, Split Waterman, Ronnie Moore, Fred Williams, Aub Lawson, Bert Roger, Alan Hunt, Eddie Rigg, Dick Bradley, Cyril Brine

1953: Jack Young, Ronnie Moore, Split Waterman, Fred Williams, Olle Nygren, Aub Lawson, Geoff Mardon, Arthur Forrest, Alan Hunt, Basse Hveem

[Paulco]

I'm too young to have seen him race , but Tommy Miller was recently inducted into Glasgow's Hall of Fame . I don't see his name mentioned anywhere on this thread , was he not rated in the wider speedway world ?

[iris123]

I'm too young to have seen him race , but Tommy Miller was recently inducted into Glasgow's Hall of Fame . I don't see his name mentioned anywhere on this thread , was he not rated in the wider speedway world ?

As has been posted before on another thread Miller was highly rated,especially for a second division rider

 

http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=80674&page=2

 

 

Talking of Miller brings back wonderful memories for me of that day in November when young Josie scored on his debut as the Celts steamrollered Dundee on their way to the Centenary year title

Edited December 18, 2016 by iris123

[BL65]

Guess it is very weighted towards the world final?I mean Charlie was on 10.28 from 40 meetings in the league and won all his quali meetings up to the British Final when he was controversially excluded and also won the Internationale at Wimbledon.How many meetings have you then used to judge someone like Plechanov,who never won a quali meeting in the run up to the world final and got beat by Monk in the WTC.Just asking rather than arguing mind

In considering the selections I took into account what I recall seeing at the time and in my view Igor just had the edge on Charlie. His second place run-off victory over Ove Fundin confirmed his stature, but he was also very impressive during the USSR tour of Britain in 1965, including smashing Goog Hoskin's Exeter track record which had been set in 1954.

 

On the tour Plechanov rode in all 5 tests, as did Monk, with Plechanov scoring 62 points plus 3 bonus compared to Charlie's 50 points and 5 bonus. In the Scotland v USSR meeting Plechanov scored 14 and Charlie 13. In that series of meetings they met 10 times, with Igor ahead of Charlie on 7 occasions.

[Guest]

I have just logged in carefully studied message 103 sent by BL65 which details his views on the rider ratings for the 1949-68 period. I only have one word to describe it - superb.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Guest

[waiheke1]

Thank you White Knight. Part compiled from memory, but thank goodness for record books, programmes, magazines, the Speedway Researcher website and various other online sources, all of which provide a wonderful reminder.

 

I decided to restrict the year lists to the top ten. Charlie was actually number 11 for 1965 in my longer list.

How does it look if you take points only for the riders say five best seasons? To peak performance rather than sustained time at the top? Allowing perhaps one "bonus point" for each season more than 5 i the top ten.

Super work!

I ask as I'd rank Mauger higher than 18th. Using that methodology 69-88, penhall would likely score say 29 points, which would likely leave him someway outside the top 5, whereas he is certainly in that top group imo.

[Guest]

::::: Who is going to set things in motion in regard to -

Eras to come -

1969-1988
1989- to present times

[BL65]

How does it look if you take points only for the riders say five best seasons? To peak performance rather than sustained time at the top? Allowing perhaps one "bonus point" for each season more than 5 i the top ten.

Super work!

I ask as I'd rank Mauger higher than 18th. Using that methodology 69-88, penhall would likely score say 29 points, which would likely leave him someway outside the top 5, whereas he is certainly in that top group imo.

There would be only minor changes to the top of the order. Because I have totalled points over a 20 season period Ivan scores a low total. The period up to the end of the National/Provincial Leagues in 1964 saw him ranked well outside the top 10, as did his injury hit season in 1965. I feel that Ivan's real breakthrough year was 1967, before he finally hit the top in 1968. A similar exercise for the 20 year period from 1969 onwards would almost certainly see him at the top of the pile.

 

1. Ove Fundin 50+9 = 59

2. Barry Briggs 48+10 = 58

3. Ronnie Moore 50+7 = 57

4. Peter Craven 44+4 = 48

5. Jack Young 43+1 = 44

6. Bjorn Knutson 41+2 = 43

7. Brian Crutcher 31+1 = 32

8. Ken McKinlay 28+3 = 31

9. Gote Nordin 29+1 = 30

10. Igor Plechanov 27+0 = 27

[waiheke1]

1969-1988

1. Ivan Mauger
2. Hans Nielsen
3. Ole Olsen
4. Bruce Penhall
5. Eric Gundersen
6. PeterCollins
7. Mike Lee
8. Anders Michanek
9. Dave Jessup
10. Kenny Carter
11. Barry Briggs
12. Malcolm Simmons
13. Shaun Moran
14. Soren sjosten
15. Jan Oswald Pedersen
16. Phil Crump
17. Chris Morton
18 Dennis Sigalos
19. Tommy Knudsen
20. Bengt Jansson

[Guest]

The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order:

 

​Ivan Mauger

Egon Muller

Barry Briggs

Bengt Jansson

Ole Olsen

Billy Hamill

Peter Collins

Sam Ermolenko

Bjorn Knutsson

Kenny Carter

Hans Nielsen

Dave Jessup

Erik Gundersen

Simon Wigg

Bruce Penhall

Bobby Schwartz

Michael Lee

Billy Sanders

Jan O Pedersen

Bo Petersen

 

::: For me it's now retire to dark corner and watch the flak fly!

Edited December 19, 2016 by Guest

[waiheke1]

Billy Hamill ? On what basis? He hadn't appeared in the bl yet, nor won any major title?

Bjorn knutsson in this era?

Schwartz ahead of the Morans, Peter sen ahead of knudsen, Wigg ahead of Simmons are odd ones for me.

[Guest]

The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order:

 

::: For me it's now retire to dark corner and watch the flak fly!

 

 

Billy Hamill ? On what basis? He hadn't appeared in the bl yet, nor won any major title?

Bjorn knutsson in this era?

Schwartz ahead of the Morans, Peter sen ahead of knudsen, Wigg ahead of Simmons are odd ones for me.

 

Billy Hamill included on the emergence of talent he was showing in the USA at the time. This is supposed to be a worldwide analysis NOT just based on the British League.

However, I do concede that the inclusion of Bjorn Knutsson is an error - he retired at the end of the 1966 season. I make a delete line for his name. I am not going to add another rider so my list now shows 19 riders.

In your haste to denigrate my Post you failed to note that I said ==

"The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order:"

Edited December 19, 2016 by Guest