Guest Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 (edited) Why so defensive? Surely the point of such lists is to debate them. I've said I think it is generally a good list. Surely it's valid to query the omission of a double world champ, or why one of the "big five" is so low. My knowledge of the era is far lower than yours I'm sure, given I was born 10 years after the end of it. If you want to pull a list of mine apart, I've provided mine for the two subsequent eras. Where all you queried was which Morton I included in the era 69-88, somewhat strangely asking if it was Wal or Val? TBH your list in message 24 was extremely hard to define. No full names - nicknames in some cases like Woffy or just partial names like Emil and Jan 0 - not really something to spend a lot of time looking at. And giving just surnames does really cause confusion. That was the reason why I made the Morton query. I guessed that you did mean Chris for that period but not wishing to play guessing games with you I deliberately highlighted Wal and Val of the Morton surname rather than Chris and Dave. As i mentioned before,i would question the inclusion of Lammy who rode 1 year over the likes of say Michanek,who qualified for a couple of world finals in that period and say Göte Nordin Wilbur Lamoreaux had TWO post-war seasons in the UK. In 1949 for Wembley and 1950 for Birmingham. Pre-war he spent three seasons with Wimbledon. He also finished fifth in the 1949 World Championship. Edited December 17, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 (edited) To be honest i want to see Iris/aces 1 )in a real good debate TOGETHER 😜😞😞great to see✌️️Both on my wavelengh ? Edited December 17, 2016 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 (edited) To be honest i want to see Iris/aces 1 )in a real good debate TOGETHER great to see✌️️ Sidney the robin - I think you mean waihekeaces1 and not aces1? Spare us that please! ONLY A JOKE! ::::: Let's get the thread back to what it is meant to be about please. Who is going to set things in motion in regard to - Eras to come - 1969-1988 1989- to present times Edited December 17, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 Not sure there is any ambiguity over the identities of any rider on my list. Tbh if you don't know who woffy emil or Jan o are, then you are probably correct in not commenting on the list. To be honest i want to see Iris/aces 1 )in a real good debate TOGETHER 😜😞😞great to see✌️️Both on my wavelengh ?How about your list from 69-88 sid? Or thoughts on mine. I'm sure you'd query muly omission of crump, and tbh if I redraft I think I'd need to fit him in there. I'd say my list is also biased towards the latter half of that era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 (edited) To be honest i want to see Iris/aces 1 )in a real good debate TOGETHER great to see✌️️Both on my wavelengh ? Well i did start a list on the Farndon thread of the best England-Australian pre-war riders.It might have been that list that was the inspiration for this thread.In reality you would only add the American riders to the best English and Australians.I could only see maybe Kilmister of NZ and Gibbs of Canada as outside contenders.Though as i mentioned previously would someone like Rye make it because of one great season or do you go for someone who had a number of decent seasons?All a matter of opinion Unlike cyclone,who put up a good list i do feel the test meetings between England and Australia were some of the big big meetings pre-war and should also be taken into consideration Wilbur Lamoreaux had TWO post-war seasons in the UK. In 1949 for Wembley and 1950 for Birmingham. Pre-war he spent three seasons with Wimbledon. He also finished fifth in the 1949 World Championship. I thought he rode for Birmingham in 1949? At least on Speedway Researcher he is included in the NL averages for Birmingham that year and is not in the 1950 averages.Maybe you have made a mistake?The excellent site has Lammy riding for the Lions in 1948 http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/docs/1950/nl1averages.pdf Edited December 17, 2016 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 (edited) Well i did start a list on the Farndon thread of the best England-Australian pre-war riders.It might have been that list that was the inspiration for this thread.In reality you would only add the American riders to the best English and Australians.I could only see maybe Kilmister of NZ and Gibbs of Canada as outside contenders.Though as i mentioned previously would someone like Rye make it because of one great season or do you go for someone who had a number of decent seasons?All a matter of opinion Unlike cyclone,who put up a good list i do feel the test meetings between England and Australia were some of the big big meetings pre-war and should also be taken into consideration I thought he rode for Birmingham in 1949? At least on Speedway Researcher he is included in the NL averages for Birmingham that year and is not in the 1950 averages.Maybe you have made a mistake?The excellent site has Lammy riding for the Lions in 1948 http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/docs/1950/nl1averages.pdf You are correct. I was one year ahead in both cases. Wilbur Lamoreaux was at Wembley in 1948, then Birmingham in 1949. You name Jimmy Gibb of Canada - 1938 and 1939 at West Ham, then in 1949 and 1951 with Wimbledon. He was a very good rider. But don't forget Canada's other top liner Eric Chitty - West Ham from 1936 to 1939, then again from 1946 until the early 1950s (possibly 1953?). Not sure there is any ambiguity over the identities of any rider on my list. Tbh if you don't know who woffy emil or Jan o are, then you are probably correct in not commenting on the list. How about your list from 69-88 sid? Or thoughts on mine. I'm sure you'd query muly omission of crump, and tbh if I redraft I think I'd need to fit him in there. I'd say my list is also biased towards the latter half of that era. You are struggling to justify making low-class identities of riders. Laziness might be the answer in my opinion. Try this one from me - a favourite 1940s rider of mine was Doug Mac! Does that mean anything to you? Edited December 17, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 (edited) Why so defensive? Surely the point of such lists is to debate them. I've said I think it is generally a good list. Surely it's valid to query the omission of a double world champ, or why one of the "big five" is so low. My knowledge of the era is far lower than yours I'm sure, given I was born 10 years after the end of it. If you want to pull a list of mine apart, I've provided mine for the two subsequent eras. Where all you queried was which Morton I included in the era 69-88, somewhat strangely asking if it was Wal or Val? Not sure there is any ambiguity over the identities of any rider on my list. Tbh if you don't know who woffy emil or Jan o are, then you are probably correct in not commenting on the list. How about your list from 69-88 sid? Or thoughts on mine. I'm sure you'd query muly omission of crump, and tbh if I redraft I think I'd need to fit him in there. I'd say my list is also biased towards the latter half of that era. To be honest i dont really like those years aces1,!!! for me the late 60s/ late 80s are years apart a great read love reading through other's opinion's have really enjoyed the thread.😀 Edited December 17, 2016 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 ::::: Let's get the thread back to what it is meant to be about please. Who is going to set things in motion in regard to - Eras to come - 1969-19881989- to present times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 (edited) Off the subject a bit how many people liked the one off final format.? What are the elder statesmen opinions ie) Bobbath,Custom,Norbold, Gustix,BL (ect) are they now engrossed in the GP series or do they miss the GOOD OLD DAYS.😧😳 Edited December 18, 2016 by Sidney the robin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Off the subject a bit how many people liked the one off final format.? What are the elder statesmen opinions ie) Bobbath,Custom,Norbold, Gustix,BL (ect) are they now engrossed in the GP series or do they miss the GOOD OLD DAYS. I used tom enjoy the excitement of a one-off world final. But speedway has moved on and IMO the Grand Prix system is a success. I doubt very much if speedway would be able to handle a qualifying system for an 'old style' world championship any more. Times have moved on. ::::: Let's get the thread back to what it is meant to be about please. Who is going to set things in motion in regard to - Eras to come - 1969-1988 1989- to present times As I mention in my quote, the real theme of this thread seems to be falling away. Who is going to set these two eras into debate on here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Off the subject a bit how many people liked the one off final format.? What are the elder statesmen opinions ie) Bobbath,Custom,Norbold, Gustix,BL (ect) are they now engrossed in the GP series or do they miss the GOOD OLD DAYS. As i mentioned yesterday on the Tom Farndon thread and has been mentioned many times before,the one off World Final was very exciting,but was open to manipulation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 MY TOP 20 (1969/88)( No order)Briggs,Olsen,Mauger,Michanek,Lee,Collins,Nielsen,Gundersen ,Penhall,Ermolenko,Simmons,P.Crump,Carter,S.Moran,T.Jansson,Sanders,Sigalos,Autrey,J.O.Pedersen,R.Wilson. If i had a guess i recon out of the 20 i named Sanders,Sigalos,R.Wilson,Carter,Autrey might not be in some peoples list. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 MY TOP 20 (1988/Present day)Nielsen,Rickardsson ,S.Moran,Jonsson,Loram,Hancock,Ward,Holder,J.O .Pedersen,Ermolenko,Crump,Gollob,Adams,Sayfutinov ,Pedersen,Woffinden,Hampel,Hamill,Nilsen,Gustafsson. The easiest list to compile for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 As i mentioned yesterday on the Tom Farndon thread and has been mentioned many times before,the one off World Final was very exciting,but was open to manipulationDo you prefer the series Iris? i must admit it has grown on me and i was a critic once .But the old romantic in me loved the old WC journey most underdogs had a chance to compete to reach there dream. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Do you prefer the series Iris? i must admit it has grown on me and i was a critic once .But the old romantic in me loved the old WC journey most underdogs had a chance to compete to reach there dream. I have to be realistic Sid.I used to enjoy the whole NL qualifying rounds through to the various Continental rounds etc.Went to a few rounds,British semi-finals at Plough Lane for instance,but i was in the minority.And although there is nothing to match the excitement of a world final,i would rather see the best rider win the title rather than some lucky guy who was seeded through.It annoys me a bit with the GP Challenge that someone who already got knocked out in a previous round can get a wild card through.......grrrrr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 ::::: Let's get the thread back to what it is meant to be about please. Who is going to set things in motion in regard to - Eras to come - 1969-1988 1989- to present times There have been some interesting comments in regard to various speedway matters, but may I steer us back towards what this thread is basically designed to discuss. See the quote above please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Well i would say the GP series is far better at showing just who is one of the greatest riders of the era,apart from the obvious when someone decides not to participate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 As i mentioned yesterday on the Tom Farndon thread and has been mentioned many times before,the one off World Final was very exciting,but was open to manipulation ................. and the Grand Prix System isn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 (edited) ................. and the Grand Prix System isn't? Much harder i would say.If someone is enough points ahead of his nearest opponent then there is no need to pay anyone to lose etc.In such a short meeting of 20 heats there is more opportunity/need,i would say.So much so,that this year the Champ didn't even need to complete the final meeting.A disgrace of another sort imo and robbing the fans of a proper finale.Could almost equate that with paying riders off..... The only time i have heard of any deals was in the Gelsenkirchen big money final,when the 4 finalists supposedly agreed to share the prize money before the race.But that wasn't a deal to win a title.Whereas there are quite a number of stories from the 1930s through to the 80s at least of payments being made in one-off world finals Edited December 18, 2016 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Over the years when there were second half races with qualifying heats and a final, it was often suggested that the prize money for the final would be shared but the riders would still race for finishing places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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