1962 Queries

[daveallan81]

The first of what hopefully won't be too many queries as I work through the results:

 

16th July Newcastle v Sheffield (Provincial League)

 

I have a point kicking for & against the league table as shown on the SGB website http://www.speedwaygb.co/history/leaguetables1962.php

 

Both Newcastle http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/docs/newcastle/1962.pdf & Sheffield http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/docs/sheffield/1962.pdf files on Speedway Researcher report the result as 45.5 - 30.5 and the heat details printed, which are identical, tally to that score.

 

A Newcastle programme shows 44.5 - 31.5 on their results page. Sheffield report it as 41.5 - 31.5 but I believe this could be a typo.

 

For my results to tally to the SGB table, the 44.5 - 31.5 result would be correct, rendering both Researcher files incorrect.

 

Can anyone confirm the result and point out the error in the heat details (if any)?

[BL65]

The Speedway Star of 28.07.62 published a league table up to and including 14th July showing Newcastle with 414 race points. The next published table on 04.08.62 recorded that up to and including 28th July the Diamonds then had 495.5 race points, from two further matches. The two matches were at home to Sheffield and Neath. The Neath home meeting was a 37-40 defeat. 495.5 minus 37 is 458.5 and 458.5 minus 414 is 44.5, so the result of the meeting against Sheffield must have been 44.5-30.5, as recorded in subsequent programmes. Peter Morrish's 'British Speedway Leagues 1946 to 1964' records a result of 44.5-30.5.

 

The match report in the Speedway Star by Maurice Morley states that the Diamonds won by 15 points, in accordance with the heat details, so he must have overlooked a non-finisher. The Star report, presumably the source of the Researcher details, shows Ivan Crozier as scoring 6 points, but my records show that he actually scored 5, so he must have been a non-finisher in either heat 5 or heat 13.

Edited December 7, 2016 by BL65

[daveallan81]

I agree on the Newcastle 44.5 but not on the Sheffield points. How did their league points total stack up at 14th July and 28th July? I've got 476 at the 14th and 618.5 at the 28th (including Newc points as 30.5).

 

Also both programmes seem to agree on 31.5 so I was looking at a rider switch in the heat details, rather than another dropped point.

[BL65]

Sorry Dave, I overlooked the Sheffield error, it is 44.5-31.5 in PM's book. Just checked points scorers for Sheffield and can confirm that Jack Winstanley scored 2 points in this meeting, not 1 as recorded in Speedway Star. The result was 44.5-31.5, which would be the result of Winstanley finishing in third place ahead of Crozier in heat 13.

Edited December 7, 2016 by BL65

[daveallan81]

That's good news, I thought I was still chasing a point for a moment.

 

Does the book also cover the North/Midland/South leagues? I'm looking to confirm race points totals if possible.

[BL65]

That's good news, I thought I was still chasing a point for a moment.

 

Does the book also cover the North/Midland/South leagues? I'm looking to confirm race points totals if possible.

Unfortunately those leagues are not covered for the 1960s in the book.

[daveallan81]

That's a pity. I've got the Midland League table confirmed but the Southern League is a bit of a bombsite.

 

The only final table I've got is from an Exeter programme from 16th July:

 

1. Poole 6 6 0 0 285 177 12

2. Exeter 6 2 1 3 232 234 5

3. Plymouth 6 2 1 3 226 237 5

4. Neath 6 1 0 5 186 281 2

 

26th April Plymouth v Poole is reported on Researcher as 36-39. The Plymouth programme 11th June also reports this score in their results list, however the 5th July and 23rd August programmes report a changed result of 35-39. The above league table seems to incorporate the 35-39 result.

 

2nd May Poole v Exeter is reported on Researcher as 48-30. Exeter programmes initially carry this score but it is then amended to 52-25. The above league table seems to incorporate the 52-25 result.

 

Can you provide any info about these two results or vouch for the accuracy of that table?

[BL65]

The original result of the Exeter match at home to Poole was a 45-33 win for the Falcons on 7th May. Poole lodged a protest to the Control Board over the inclusion of guest rider Jimmy Gooch in the Exeter team and this was upheld. His 9 points were deducted and the amended score was Exeter 38 Poole 40. The riders who finished behind Gooch were given an additional point in each race. Nothing in speedway is ever straightforward though and there was more to the story. The Control Board had refused Exeter permission to use Gooch before the meeting started and so 6 minutes before tapes up it was announced that the meeting was being changed from a Southern League fixture to a challenge match. However, when the matter was considered further the meeting was reinstated as a Southern League match.

 

Gooch's 5 points in the meeting at Poole on 2nd May were also deducted by the Control Board, hence the result being amended from 48-30 to 52-25, with the riders he beat benefiting from an extra point provided they finished the race.

 

Plymouth successfully protested to the Control Board that Poole should have not have used Brian Clements as a guest rider on 26th April and his 3 points were deducted. The result of heat 3 was changed from 2-4 to 3-2. The original result was 36-39 and this amendment would have changed the score to 37-37. However, the Control Board also ruled that Plymouth wrongly used Maury Mattingley as a substitute in heat 12 and his win in that race was removed, with the race result amended from 5-1 to 3-3. This gave an amended result of Plymouth 35 Poole 39.

 

The league table shown in the Exeter programme from 16th July 1962 is correct. Speedway Star also published a 'final table' on 14th July but had Exeter with an extra race point scored and Poole with an extra race point against.

Edited December 8, 2016 by BL65

[JoeW]

That's good news, I thought I was still chasing a point for a moment.

 

Does the book also cover the North/Midland/South leagues? I'm looking to confirm race points totals if possible.

North & Midland league tables appear in the 1963 Speedway Star Digest

 

North

1. Sheffield 8 6 1 1 366.5 255.5 13

2. Middlesbrough 8 4 0 4 316 305 8

3. Edinburgh 8 3 2 3 303 318 8

4. Newcastle 8 4 0 4 293.5 327.5 8

5. Bradford 8 1 1 6 274 347 3

 

Midland

1. Wolverhampton 6 4 0 2 242 226 8

2. Cradley Heath 6 3 0 3 263 205 6

3. Leicester 6 3 0 3 226 242 6

4. Stoke 6 2 0 4 205 263 4

[daveallan81]

Brough, thanks for those tables, pleased to say that they tally with my results.

 

With regards to the Exeter v Poole affair, I assume this took a while to shake out because the abandoned 11th June Provincial League fixture was also billed as a Southern League fixture. So if I'm reading things correctly, the 7th May challenge match result stands at 45-33, and the retrospective Southern League 'fixture', after protests, stands at 38-40. Effectively the one match produced two different results, quite remarkable.

[BL65]

The results of the appeal were published during the third week in June. Speedway Star billed the meeting for the 11th June as Provincial League only in the forthcoming fixtures and the the report of the abandonment described it as a PL fixture only. The meeting on 7th May should not have been changed to a challenge and so was reinstated as a Southern League encounter.

[Sidney the robin]

The Speedway Star of 28.07.62 published a league table up to and including 14th July showing Newcastle with 414 race points. The next published table on 04.08.62 recorded that up to and including 28th July the Diamonds then had 495.5 race points, from two further matches. The two matches were at home to Sheffield and Neath. The Neath home meeting was a 37-40 defeat. 495.5 minus 37 is 458.5 and 458.5 minus 414 is 44.5, so the result of the meeting against Sheffield must have been 44.5-30.5, as recorded in subsequent programmes. Peter Morrish's 'British Speedway Leagues 1946 to 1964' records a result of 44.5-30.5.

 

The match report in the Speedway Star by Maurice Morley states that the Diamonds won by 15 points, in accordance with the heat details, so he must have overlooked a non-finisher. The Star report, presumably the source of the Researcher details, shows Ivan Crozier as scoring 6 points, but my records show that he actually scored 5, so he must have been a non-finisher in either heat 5 or heat 13.

BL can't remember if it was you or Dave who put on the head/ head records of Golden Helmet match races and other races between CRAVEN and FUNDIN.? Any chance i am doing a memorabilia pictures results and reviews on both great riders.😆 Edited December 8, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[daveallan81]

The results of the appeal were published during the third week in June. Speedway Star billed the meeting for the 11th June as Provincial League only in the forthcoming fixtures and the the report of the abandonment described it as a PL fixture only. The meeting on 7th May should not have been changed to a challenge and so was reinstated as a Southern League encounter.

 

The Exeter programme 4th June bills it for both competitions. The next programme I have access to is 16th July, where the results page shows it as a Challenge (45-33) but adds a footnote "the Southern Cup match ridden at the same time resulted in a win for Poole by 40 points to 38". Three subsequent programmes show the same.

 

So...the challenge match status and result was rescinded and replaced with the Southern League amended result. What a hullabaloo.

 

Sid, it wasn't me that produced the Craven/Fundin lists, can't help with that one.

[BL65]

Perhaps the two versions of the result counted according to that information. I echo your sentiments.

Edited December 8, 2016 by BL65

[BL65]

BL can't remember if it was you or Dave who put on the head/ head records of Golden Helmet match races and other races between CRAVEN and FUNDIN.? Any chance i am doing a memorabilia pictures results and reviews on both great riders.

Sidney, I made some comments in post #30 under your original topic on

 

'Fundin Olsen Nielsen Would They Have All Won More World Title's If There Had Been A Gp Series Around?'

 

 

 

[Sidney the robin]

Sidney, I made some comments in post #30 under your original topic on

 

'Fundin Olsen Nielsen Would They Have All Won More World Title's If There Had Been A Gp Series Around?'[/

 

 

 

Thanks BL great stuff.😆 Edited December 8, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[daveallan81]

These are the outstanding queries for 1962, boosted by the lack of a Southampton file to work from:

 

3rd April Southampton v Swindon Rained Off

Confirm date & rain-off

8th April Rye House Promoter's Trophy Rained Off

Confirm date & rain-off

1st May Southampton Pride Of The South Trophy Winner Dick Bradley

Confirm date & winner

22nd May Southampton South Of England Championship Winner Bjorn Knuttson

Confirm date & winner

8th June Wolverhampton W.C.Q.R. Tie W. Templeton/G. Warren/N. Hunter/T. Redmond

Speedway Researcher file reports this as a 4-way tie (on 13 points) but Wolverhampton programme reports a three-way tie. Which is correct?

3rd July Southampton W.C.Q.R. Winner Alby Golden

Confirm date & winner

22nd July Eastbourne v Poole (Challenge)

Result or fate of meeting - possibly not staged?

31st July Southampton v Continentals 52-44

Confirm date & result

8th August Norwich Pride Of The East Rained Off

Confirm date & rain-off

9th August Middlesbrough v Newcastle (Challenge)

Was this the Tyne-Tees Trophy 2nd Leg?

11th September St. Austell v Exeter v Plymouth

Result or fate of meeting - possibly not staged?

25th September Southampton v National League Select 50-27

Confirm date & result

[BL65]

3rd April Southampton - Persistent rain resulted in the meeting being postponed just before start time.

8th April Rye House - Following overnight rain, another heavy downpour as the meeting was about to start resulted in cancellation.

1st May Southampton - Dick Bradley and Cyril Roger both scored 13 points, with Bradley winning a run-off.

22nd May Southampton - Knutson won with a 15 point maximum, with Ron How second on 13. Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs and Tony Lewis scored 11 to tie for third place.

8th June Wolverhampton - There was a 4-rider tie for first place, with Willie Templeton, Graham Warren, Norman Hunter and Trevor Redmond all scoring 13 points. This is confirmed by both Speedway Star and my programme.

3rd July Southampton - Alby Golden and Neil Street both scored 12, with Golden winning a run-off for first place. Ronnie Genz was third with 11 points.

22nd July Eastbourne - I have a record of the result being Eastbourne 41 Poole 35, although the heat details are not completed in my programme.

31st July Southampton - The home team beat Continentals 52-44 (Southampton: Briggs 13, Vandeberg 11, Knustson 9, Golden 8, Roger 5, Bradley 5, Luckhurst 1, Continentals: Fundin 14, Craven 13, Nygren 5, Sjosten 5, Maidment 4, Larsson 2, Svensson 1).

8th August Norwich - According to my records this meeting was re-scheduled rather than rained off. It took place three weeks later. Norwich also staged home meetings on 4th and 11th August.

9th August Middlesbrough - This was an additional challenge match. Middlesbrough 37 Newcastle 41 on 31st May doubled as the Provincial League match and the second leg of the Tyne-Tees Trophy according to the Speedway Star.

11th September St. Austell - According to my records no meeting took place, the originally advertised open meeting having been removed from the fixture list.

25th September Southampton - Southampton 50 (Golden 10, Bradley 9, Knutson 9, Roger 8, Briggs 7, Vandenberg 7, Monk 0) Pick of the National League 27 (Sjosten 7, Nygren 5, Fundin 4, Lightfoot 4, Maidment 3, Mountford 3, Craven 1)

Edited December 11, 2016 by BL65

[Guest compost]

 

1st May Southampton - Dick Bradley and Cyril Roger both scored 13 points, with Bradley winning a run-off.

22nd May Southampton - Knutson won with a 15 point maximum, with Ron How second on 13. Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs and Tony Lewis scored 11 to tie for third place.

3rd July Southampton - Alby Golden and Neil Street both scored 12, with Golden winning a run-off for first place. Ronnie Genz was third with 11 points.

31st July Southampton - The home team beat Continentals 52-44 (Southampton: Briggs 13, Vandeberg 11, Knustson 9, Golden 8, Roger 5, Bradley 5, Luckhurst 1, Continentals: Fundin 14, Craven 13, Nygren 5, Sjosten 5, Maidment 4, Larsson 2, Svensson 1).

25th September Southampton - Southampton 50 (Golden 10, Bradley 9, Knutson 9, Roger 8, Briggs 7, Vandenberg 7, Monk 0) Pick of the National League 27 (Sjosten 7, Nygren 5, Fundin 4, Lightfoot 4, Maidment 3, Mountford 3, Craven 1)

 

 

BL65 do you have heat details for the above meetings please ?

[BL65]

 

BL65 do you have heat details for the above meetings please ?

Yes, I do have the heat details in a pdf document. If you send me a PM with your email address I will forward it to you.