Tony White Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 A Concrete starting grid would stop the gardening problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 A Concrete starting grid would stop the gardening problem Which would be like a take off ramp for the bikes each time they crossed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray c Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 I can't see any problem with starts remember woffinden British final a couple of years ago brought out is own shove now that's what you call gardening 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Nope we never used to have any gardening, it needs to stop.I think you may be the only member of the forum that believes that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Which is probably why he's gone missing again from this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointsmeanplayoffs Posted December 21, 2016 Report Share Posted December 21, 2016 Which would be like a take off ramp for the bikes each time they crossed it. Why not add a water jump as well?!? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted December 21, 2016 Report Share Posted December 21, 2016 Now there's an idea that could make Speedway more interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted December 21, 2016 Report Share Posted December 21, 2016 Why not add a water jump as well?!? Now there's an idea that could make Speedway more interesting. Never going to happen. All the riders would be complaining about the water jump being too wet. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted December 21, 2016 Report Share Posted December 21, 2016 Yes, I can see the queue of protesting riders now.....Davey Watt, Troy Batchelor, Rory Schlein. Purely coincidence that they are all Aussies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 ...approx £150 over a season .... Could get yourself a ticket to see Guns'n'Roses with that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 I use to enjoy the shenanigans at the start that created lots of atmosphere. Riders like Mauger and Michael Lee used it as a trick to con and outdo lesser opponents. It was part of the game when you had the chance to use physiology. Its all very well saying you have to stay still, mustn't touch the tapes, will always result in the good gaters winning. No doubt the good riders wanted these new rules that favoured the best, but as far as the spectators were concerned it makes the process less exciting. and more predictable. Back in the early 70's when Mauger was god, he came down to Saddlebow Road, on the back of 12 straight maximums for Newcastle. He expected this to continue. He lined up at the start of heat 1, messing about like he always did, he rolled back an forth, he kept pushing them tape ready to fly. but in this instance the Ref let them go when Mauger was pulling back. The Lynn pair got the drop, Featherby hole shoted with Betts riding shotgun. It took Mauger 3 laps before he passed Betts, but Featherby was clear and well worth that win..... Mauger score 14 that night he was someone very special. Out doing him at the start was riders only chance of beating him. That great race would not have been allowed today. The start strategy has ruined more races and added to the length of meetings , than any other rule change. Even when a rider gets a ace start the Ref brings them back and wastes more time. Sometimes I think the Ref wants all the glory and imposes themselves all too often. This standing still and no touching the tapes at the start has probably made it more fairer to the purist, but it has taken away the added excitement of the starts, it has added more stoppages, and made the races more stereotyped. Give me the old starts any day..... And you wonder why all those supporters don't come any more....... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 And you wonder why all those supporters don't come any more....... If gating shenanigans is all it's about then why waste the other 4 laps? Why not have just a 25 metre drag race to see who can con the others at the start line the best? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 The old starts were just unfair, much prefer today's starts, and they could be improved upon further to make them even fairer.... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 Cant agree with you Stars, to me the rolling and messing about at starts was and still is unfair IMO. Championships were/are at stake, riders earnings too. I am glad they trying to handle things better now. I do feel sorry for those riders who have anticipated the start "just right", how they are brought back for doing a very good start, but things are so fine it is likely a ref will get it wrong. Shame really. Get rid of tapes and rely on a beam linked to a green light - riders have a choice what to watch then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 The old starts were just unfair, much prefer today's starts, and they could be improved upon further to make them even fairer.... What's fairness got to do with it? . We see perfectly good starts today brought back because a rider was too good. We see the same riders gating all the time to win with ease, is that good viewing? How many times during a meeting is a race pulled back for another unfair start, More wasted time, and you think that better........ All I did, was pass an opinion saying I preferred it when the riders were allowed to move and jostle at the start. So what if he touched the tapes, to me it added to the excitement and added to the occasion... If gating shenanigans is all it's about then why waste the other 4 laps? Why not have just a 25 metre drag race to see who can con the others at the start line the best? That reply don't even warrant a response., I said 'gating shenanigans' added to the races, not replace them..... Cant agree with you Stars, to me the rolling and messing about at starts was and still is unfair IMO. Championships were/are at stake, riders earnings too. I am glad they trying to handle things better now. I do feel sorry for those riders who have anticipated the start "just right", how they are brought back for doing a very good start, but things are so fine it is likely a ref will get it wrong. Shame really. Get rid of tapes and rely on a beam linked to a green light - riders have a choice what to watch then. I can accept your thoughts But surely you can see the excitement it added to a meeting. In the old way all riders had a chance if winning, the present rules only benefit the gaters and those who want a purist result. You say you understand the riders disappointment when they anticipate a brilliant start only too be brought back. They are the rules, the Ref can pull, when not having a second look at a TV screen, before making an opinion. All this does is add another few minutes to the proceeding. 2 or 3 of these and half an hour can be added to the meeting and there we are, standing about waiting, usually in the cold for that unnecessary perfect start. Does the sport actually need that degree of finesse ? AS you pointed out they're many ways to address the start procedure, but can the sport finance this additional expense?. The general perception is that the majority of races are won from the gate anyway and these strict, no movement rule at the gate only emphasises that fact. The bigger the lottery at the start, the more the excitement would be generated.... This is merely an opinion...... from somebody who has been to far too many race meetings,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 I use to enjoy the shenanigans at the start that created lots of atmosphere. Riders like Mauger and Michael Lee used it as a trick to con and outdo lesser opponents. It was part of the game when you had the chance to use physiology. Its all very well saying you have to stay still, mustn't touch the tapes, will always result in the good gaters winning. No doubt the good riders wanted these new rules that favoured the best, but as far as the spectators were concerned it makes the process less exciting. and more predictable. Back in the early 70's when Mauger was god, he came down to Saddlebow Road, on the back of 12 straight maximums for Newcastle. He expected this to continue. He lined up at the start of heat 1, messing about like he always did, he rolled back an forth, he kept pushing them tape ready to fly. but in this instance the Ref let them go when Mauger was pulling back. The Lynn pair got the drop, Featherby hole shoted with Betts riding shotgun. It took Mauger 3 laps before he passed Betts, but Featherby was clear and well worth that win..... Mauger score 14 that night he was someone very special. Out doing him at the start was riders only chance of beating him. That great race would not have been allowed today. The start strategy has ruined more races and added to the length of meetings , than any other rule change. Even when a rider gets a ace start the Ref brings them back and wastes more time. Sometimes I think the Ref wants all the glory and imposes themselves all too often. This standing still and no touching the tapes at the start has probably made it more fairer to the purist, but it has taken away the added excitement of the starts, it has added more stoppages, and made the races more stereotyped. Give me the old starts any day..... And you wonder why all those supporters don't come any more....... Nothing worse watching old footage of riders barging into the tapes and rolling back to do it again and again. Much prefer to see riders still at the start before the tapes go up, its also a lot fairer.. As for gardening, as long as its within the 2 minutes and within reason ( no outside implements ) whats the problem ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted December 29, 2016 Report Share Posted December 29, 2016 They could use some sort of modern electronic technology, that has been spoken about many times, to make the starts fairer than simply the ref's judgement ..... one day perhaps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted December 29, 2016 Report Share Posted December 29, 2016 Nothing worse watching old footage of riders barging into the tapes and rolling back to do it again and again. Much prefer to see riders still at the start before the tapes go up, its also a lot fairer.. As for gardening, as long as its within the 2 minutes and within reason ( no outside implements ) whats the problem ? There is no problem, just a few opinions related to the start of the races. In them old footage you were watching, you could not see or feel the atmosphere of that specific race, but no doubt you could see the size of the crowd watching them lottery starts , and this what the issue is all about. Of cause we all want our favourites to win every race, and not be out done by a cowboy at he start, but do we have to have everything so specifically black and white where the top riders always win? Riders like PC, Lee, Morton, Carter, Penhall and many more, were brilliant riders. Them missing the gate wasn't a problem, whereas to others like Jessup, Louis if they missed the gate their race was done. You don't have to look far to see who the Racers and Gaters are.................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Monster Posted December 29, 2016 Report Share Posted December 29, 2016 Never going to happen. All the riders would be complaining about the water jump being too wet. Mark Courtney for Leicester V Coventry in the 80's. Cov riders not happy. Hilarious! Never going to happen. All the riders would be complaining about the water jump being too wet. Mark Courtney for Leicester V Coventry in the 80's. Cov riders not happy. Hilarious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted December 29, 2016 Report Share Posted December 29, 2016 (edited) There is no problem, just a few opinions related to the start of the races. In them old footage you were watching, you could not see or feel the atmosphere of that specific race, but no doubt you could see the size of the crowd watching them lottery starts , and this what the issue is all about. Of cause we all want our favourites to win every race, and not be out done by a cowboy at he start, but do we have to have everything so specifically black and white where the top riders always win? Riders like PC, Lee, Morton, Carter, Penhall and many more, were brilliant riders. Them missing the gate wasn't a problem, whereas to others like Jessup, Louis if they missed the gate their race was done. You don't have to look far to see who the Racers and Gaters are.................... I seem to remember it also agitated the crowd which led to plenty of loud "comments" directed at the individuals concerned It certainly built up the tension and anticipation of the race and probably most important the atmosphere... When a rider like Mauger 'got away with one' he would be booed again as he came to the tapes in his next ride, and if he broke the tapes (which he sometimes did) it was the biggest cheer of the night... Makes Panto villians out of the riders which is no bad thing when you are trying to deliver excitement and atmosphere... And, as we saw, the best riders generally won anyway because simply they were better than the rest regardless of gating first or not.... Lest face it, this year we are going to see two point riders up against GP stars so why not allow them the one chance they have of getting a flyer? It will at least make the race more interesting.. Refs could make it clear that they will put the tapes up regardless of whether riders are 'moving back' after trying to anticipate a start, so those who gamble know the risk... Anything that can bring some fan participation and engagement, as well as the 'tribal' atmosphere you would expect in a team event of a professional sport cannot be a bad thing surely? Obviously there would have to be a part of the programme devoted to instructions to fans not to shout anything 'nasty' to the riders who try anticipating the start as.... A. There may be kids who hear it and it will warp their fragile minds, and.. B. All riders only ride for our entertainment obviously so don't deserve any adverse comments.. In fact we could call the track fence the 'respect barrier' going forward, like we have in kids football for parents to stand behind?.... Thats the 'elf and safety' covered, damn you Brussels.....😉 Edited December 29, 2016 by mikebv 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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