National Development League Agm

[uk_martin]

If prices are set at a realistic level then you don't need concessionary rates for old-timers...£10 admission including complimentary race card with accompanied children (1 per adult) free sounds about right to me.

...and would certainly avoid any venue that seeks to increase it's prices by more than the rate of inflation...

Feel free to disagree, but I can't see the logic of your arguement. On the one hand you say that a "fair" overall price of £10 means that you won't need concessionary admission for old-timers. Having agreed by implication with my point that the average take at some places is about £8 per head because of concessionary admission, meaning that the majority of people coming through the turnstiles a very old or very young, what you are saying is that the majority of fans need to have their admission prices increased from the average of £8 to your "fair" £10.

 

On the basis that this is more than the rate of inflation, you're not going to have too many places left to visit then, if your pricing structure were to be adopted.

[Little Thumper]

Feel free to disagree, but I can't see the logic of your arguement. On the one hand you say that a "fair" overall price of £10 means that you won't need concessionary admission for old-timers. Having agreed by implication with my point that the average take at some places is about £8 per head because of concessionary admission, meaning that the majority of people coming through the turnstiles a very old or very young, what you are saying is that the majority of fans need to have their admission prices increased from the average of £8 to your "fair" £10.

 

On the basis that this is more than the rate of inflation, you're not going to have too many places left to visit then, if your pricing structure were to be adopted.

 

I am sorry that I have not made my point with sufficient clarity.

 

In simple terms, I believe that National League speedway is a £10 event.

 

It is perhaps unlikely that this competitive price point targeting will be a strategy that emerges from the NL conflab.

 

On this basis, it is surely reasonable to expect any admission price rises to be no greater than the current rate of inflation.

I am not aware of any justification for suggesting that the inflation rate in the world of speedway is different to the rate in the real world.

[AntiqueSteve]

 

I am sorry that I have not made my point with sufficient clarity.

 

In simple terms, I believe that National League speedway is a £10 event.

 

It is perhaps unlikely that this competitive price point targeting will be a strategy that emerges from the NL conflab.

 

On this basis, it is surely reasonable to expect any admission price rises to be no greater than the current rate of inflation.

I am not aware of any justification for suggesting that the inflation rate in the world of speedway is different to the rate in the real world.

You must be having a laugh, ("£10 event") a couple of drinks in the pub !

 

Do you have the faintest idea how much it costs to set up a speedway event and run these kind of bikes ?

 

I think you must be living in another world mate, I don't know any decent sporting events for a tenna. Can you understand what it costs to keep these venues open...first aid, insurances, public liability, staff, safety equipment, shale, advertising/ social media, rider's. In essence the more money in the pot - the more professional speedway can be run.

[Little Thumper]

You must be having a laugh, ("£10 event") a couple of drinks in the pub !

 

Do you have the faintest idea how much it costs to set up a speedway event and run these kind of bikes ?

 

I think you must be living in another world mate, I don't know any decent sporting events for a tenna. Can you understand what it costs to keep these venues open...first aid, insurances, public liability, staff, safety equipment, shale, advertising/ social media, rider's. In essence the more money in the pot - the more professional speedway can be run.

 

I can go to 3 Sisters near Wigan and watch a full day's car, kart or bike racing for £5 (children under 16 FOC).

 

I can go to Oulton Park and watch a pretty decent day's sport for £13 and that includes free parking, spotless toilets and a free grandstand seat.

 

I can go to Curborough, Loton Park or Barbon Manor and watch some excellent sprinting or hill climbing for around £10.

 

All these venues seem to be able to pay their insurance, staff, advertising etc etc and still charge a reasonable admission charge.

 

So AntiqueSteve, I do understand what you are saying but the speedway product must compete in a lively market.

 

And to answer your question about whether I understand what it costs to keep venues open, I can reassure you that I am aware of this challenge as I was involved with the promotion and organization of motor sport for over 20 years.

[Nathan Mole]

Well from your point their Thumper, it proves that the prices for speedway are likely at the rates that they are because the number of tickets being sold means that most clubs cant reduce their rates any lower as a result

[Jayne]

 

I can go to 3 Sisters near Wigan and watch a full day's car, kart or bike racing for £5 (children under 16 FOC).

 

I can go to Oulton Park and watch a pretty decent day's sport for £13 and that includes free parking, spotless toilets and a free grandstand seat.

 

I can go to Curborough, Loton Park or Barbon Manor and watch some excellent sprinting or hill climbing for around £10.

 

All these venues seem to be able to pay their insurance, staff, advertising etc etc and still charge a reasonable admission charge.

 

So AntiqueSteve, I do understand what you are saying but the speedway product must compete in a lively market.

 

And to answer your question about whether I understand what it costs to keep venues open, I can reassure you that I am aware of this challenge as I was involved with the promotion and organization of motor sport for over 20 years.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the competitors at those venues paying to race instead of being paid to race in speedway?

[Little Thumper]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the competitors at those venues paying to race instead of being paid to race in speedway?

 

Exactly so, Jayne!

And that is part of the problem for speedway promoters such as yourself.

Competitors at a Clubmans' car meeting at a circuit like Oulton Park will pay in excess of £100 in entry fees.

And many of the drivers will also pay the circuit another £100 to do the test day which is usually on the day before the meeting.

So if you work on the basis that you will have 100 competitors at your meeting, you have got between £10,000 and £20,000 in the bank before you even open the gates! Get a good number of customers coming in, sell them a nice dollop of food and drink and you are laughing.

 

The majority of your race day staff (marshals) are volunteers, so virtually no cost there.

You do have to pay for doctors, timekeepers and commentators and of course, there are all your fixed costs, such as maintenance, insurance, staff salaries etc.

 

And on the days, you haven't got race days, you run car and bike track days, corporate days and experience days. There is very little cost in putting these kinds of activities on and they generate substantial profits for the circuit owner and keep a heallthy cash flow.

 

So, speedway has little chance of competing with the economic model employed by other motor sport offerings, so it's only option is to either cut costs or enhance the product that is being offered.

 

I do not envy the job of the speedway promoter and I sincerely hope that the sport at National League level can survive and prosper.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Little Thumper

[uk_martin]

I am sorry that I have not made my point with sufficient clarity....

 

Correct, you haven't.

 

Firstly, it really doesn't matter what the headline price is. Whether it's £13 which is then discounted by concessions down to something akin to £8, or whether it's £10 flat rate. What matters is two-fold. Firstly what it means to the fans. Do they pay £8 or do they pay £10, and you'll agree that £10 is more than £8 so your flat rate idea is going to push the cost per "average" (OAP) fan up by 25%. Secondly, what impact does it have on the clubs revenues. Unless you have the research at hand at how much demand will rise or fall depending on whether there's a £1 rise in the price or a £5 reduction in the price, I'd say that this is an unknown factor.

 

This whole panic about inflation is doing my head in. Birmingham, whose admission I've had to pay, started out in the PL in 2007 at £15 per adult. It stood at £15 even in the EL (if I remember rightly, or did it go up to £16, I can't remember now) and now since 2015 it's been at £13 in the NL. I've not heard about any impending price rise, but if the price went up by £1, what sort of rise would that represent in the long term?

 

How can you put a value of £10 on NL speedway? Or any other form of speedway come to that? The value is what people are prepared to pay. Up the road from Perry Barr, not long ago, 50,000 people paid between £30 and £50 to see Usain Bolt for 10 seconds. Is that good value? Or is everyone else wrong?

 

The price is not the game changer for speedway. It's the quality of the product that matters. Despite the stability in the admission price since 2007 and the on-track success of the teams, crowds at Perry Barr have fallen year on year (with a slight blip at the start of the EL era). You can even say that in real terms, the price reduced compared to everything else that was getting more expensive around it. And still the crowds fell. Never once have I heard someone say to me "how much is it in, at the speedway...oh, that's too much" Plenty of times I've heard "nah, it's boring. First out of the start wins" and other disparaging comments about the state of the viewing, or the long delays between races and other things. People have the money to spend if there is value to be had. (as I found out in trying to get a ticket for the Guns'n'Roses gig) Speedway's challenge is in providing better value for the money.

[AntiqueSteve]

 

I can go to 3 Sisters near Wigan and watch a full day's car, kart or bike racing for £5 (children under 16 FOC).

 

I can go to Oulton Park and watch a pretty decent day's sport for £13 and that includes free parking, spotless toilets and a free grandstand seat.

 

I can go to Curborough, Loton Park or Barbon Manor and watch some excellent sprinting or hill climbing for around £10.

 

All these venues seem to be able to pay their insurance, staff, advertising etc etc and still charge a reasonable admission charge.

 

So AntiqueSteve, I do understand what you are saying but the speedway product must compete in a lively market.

 

And to answer your question about whether I understand what it costs to keep venues open, I can reassure you that I am aware of this challenge as I was involved with the promotion and organization of motor sport for over 20 years.

Come on....kart racing, hill climbing, not a comparable, sorry we'll just have to disagree

 

I don't begrudge paying because I know what must go into it..........

[Little Thumper]

 

Correct, you haven't.

 

Firstly, it really doesn't matter what the headline price is. Whether it's £13 which is then discounted by concessions down to something akin to £8, or whether it's £10 flat rate. What matters is two-fold. Firstly what it means to the fans. Do they pay £8 or do they pay £10, and you'll agree that £10 is more than £8 so your flat rate idea is going to push the cost per "average" (OAP) fan up by 25%. Secondly, what impact does it have on the clubs revenues. Unless you have the research at hand at how much demand will rise or fall depending on whether there's a £1 rise in the price or a £5 reduction in the price, I'd say that this is an unknown factor.

 

This whole panic about inflation is doing my head in. Birmingham, whose admission I've had to pay, started out in the PL in 2007 at £15 per adult. It stood at £15 even in the EL (if I remember rightly, or did it go up to £16, I can't remember now) and now since 2015 it's been at £13 in the NL. I've not heard about any impending price rise, but if the price went up by £1, what sort of rise would that represent in the long term?

 

How can you put a value of £10 on NL speedway? Or any other form of speedway come to that? The value is what people are prepared to pay. Up the road from Perry Barr, not long ago, 50,000 people paid between £30 and £50 to see Usain Bolt for 10 seconds. Is that good value? Or is everyone else wrong?

 

The price is not the game changer for speedway. It's the quality of the product that matters. Despite the stability in the admission price since 2007 and the on-track success of the teams, crowds at Perry Barr have fallen year on year (with a slight blip at the start of the EL era). You can even say that in real terms, the price reduced compared to everything else that was getting more expensive around it. And still the crowds fell. Never once have I heard someone say to me "how much is it in, at the speedway...oh, that's too much" Plenty of times I've heard "nah, it's boring. First out of the start wins" and other disparaging comments about the state of the viewing, or the long delays between races and other things. People have the money to spend if there is value to be had. (as I found out in trying to get a ticket for the Guns'n'Roses gig) Speedway's challenge is in providing better value for the money.

 

uk martin, you are quite right in what you are saying I believe.

 

Let me just come back on a couple of your points -"The value is what people are prepared to pay". As the number of people attending speedway meetings has been declining for many years, then people have surely decided that the price being asked is too much for the product that is being offered.

 

With regard to your statement that 50,000 people paid between £30 and £50 to watch some bloke run down a bit of a track, then that would be 30 - 50 pounds more than I would be prepared to pay!

 

So perhaps, we all value things differently and spend our pennies accordingly.

 

But at the end of the day, speedway has to get more people coming through the gate and they are more likely to do that by reducing the price rather than increasing it.

Come on....kart racing, hill climbing, not a comparable, sorry we'll just have to disagree

 

I don't begrudge paying because I know what must go into it..........

 

Not comparable?

Have you been to a hill climb recently?

 

Cosworth powered state of the art single seaters, sports cars, bikes. all racing up a thin ribbon of tarmac and the winner decided by hundredths of a second. If that's not exciting, the I don't know what is!

 

Karting not exciting?

 

Now I know you are trying to wind me up.

 

So, we all decide what something is worth and act accordingly.

Thanks

[uk_martin]

...then people have surely decided that the price being asked is too much for the product that is being offered.

Or more likely that the product is no good at ANY price?

 

With regard to your statement that 50,000 people paid between £30 and £50 to watch some bloke run down a bit of a track, then that would be 30 - 50 pounds more than I would be prepared to pay!

 

So perhaps, we all value things differently and spend our pennies accordingly.

 

But at the end of the day, speedway has to get more people coming through the gate and they are more likely to do that by reducing the price rather than increasing it.

Nor me. I didn't go either. HOWEVER, the sport-going public with money to spend DID go! More to the point, they chose athletics over speedway over for where to spend their money. That in the eyes of the money spending public makes speedway a poor choice.

 

 

But at the end of the day, speedway has to get more people coming through the gate and they are more likely to do that by reducing the price rather than increasing it.

Do you have research to back that up? Or is it just a gut feeling? Don't say it's "common sense" because speedway as a sport is a common-sense-free zone. Check out this... http://www.tutor2u.net/economics/reference/price-elasticity-of-demand You'll see that some products will retain their demand no matter what the price (within reason) and some will stand or fall depending on very small price changes. Without proper research you can't just say what will happen to the demand for speedway.

[Little Thumper]

Or more likely that the product is no good at ANY price?

 

Nor me. I didn't go either. HOWEVER, the sport-going public with money to spend DID go! More to the point, they chose athletics over speedway over for where to spend their money. That in the eyes of the money spending public makes speedway a poor choice.

 

 

Do you have research to back that up? Or is it just a gut feeling? Don't say it's "common sense" because speedway as a sport is a common-sense-free zone. Check out this... http://www.tutor2u.net/economics/reference/price-elasticity-of-demand You'll see that some products will retain their demand no matter what the price (within reason) and some will stand or fall depending on very small price changes. Without proper research you can't just say what will happen to the demand for speedway.

 

All I will say to you at this stage is BOGOF.

Yes, supermarkets run Buy One Get One Free offers because they have a far greater understanding of customers' habits than I do and firmly believe that they will spend more if they think they are getting better value for money.

 

Sadly, speedway is not a niche product such as a Burberry handbag and therefore will not sustain an unrealistic price model.

[AntiqueSteve]

 

uk martin, you are quite right in what you are saying I believe.

 

Let me just come back on a couple of your points -"The value is what people are prepared to pay". As the number of people attending speedway meetings has been declining for many years, then people have surely decided that the price being asked is too much for the product that is being offered.

 

With regard to your statement that 50,000 people paid between £30 and £50 to watch some bloke run down a bit of a track, then that would be 30 - 50 pounds more than I would be prepared to pay!

 

So perhaps, we all value things differently and spend our pennies accordingly.

 

But at the end of the day, speedway has to get more people coming through the gate and they are more likely to do that by reducing the price rather than increasing it.

 

Not comparable?

Have you been to a hill climb recently?

 

Cosworth powered state of the art single seaters, sports cars, bikes. all racing up a thin ribbon of tarmac and the winner decided by hundredths of a second. If that's not exciting, the I don't know what is!

 

Karting not exciting?

 

Now I know you are trying to wind me up.

 

So, we all decide what something is worth and act accordingly.

Thanks

I tried going to my local PROFESSIONAL sporting track (Snetterton) ....you try getting in for a tenna ! - I think you are the one winding us up, maybe speedway is not for you, seriously

[Little Thumper]

I tried going to my local PROFESSIONAL sporting track (Snetterton) ....you try getting in for a tenna ! - I think you are the one winding us up, maybe speedway is not for you, seriously

 

AntiqueSteve, I have no intention of winding you up.

If you follow, the link that I have provided, then you could purchase a season ticket for Snetterton and it would cost you £99.

 

https://connect.msv.com/Product?PublicID=d8ab6a59-7e13-4859-abe2-16ab24dad481

 

For your £99, you will get entry to every meeting at Snetterton including BTCC and BSB. Your pass gives you access to all the practice days as well.

 

Your £99 will get you into around 20 days of action, including some of the best racing in the country and it will cost you approximately £5 per visit.

 

With reference to your, "maybe speedway is not for you" comment, I have followed speedway since 1966 both in this country and abroad, so I think perhaps speedway is for me but I want speedway to deal with the realities of the situation and take whatever steps it can to survive and prosper.

[uk_martin]

 

All I will say to you at this stage is BOGOF.

Yes, supermarkets run Buy One Get One Free offers because they have a far greater understanding of customers' habits than I do and firmly believe that they will spend more if they think they are getting better value for money.

 

Sadly, speedway is not a niche product such as a Burberry handbag and therefore will not sustain an unrealistic price model.

 

Whatever.

... it will cost you approximately £5 per visit.

Birmingham to Snetterton = 142 miles (per Giggle Maps) thus 284 miles there and back. @55mpg in my car, that's roughly 5.16 gallons of diesel. 5.16 gallons = 23.46 litres. And at £1.11 per litre at Asda, that's a few pennies more than £26.00 for fuel, plus £5 admission = £31.

 

Do the 5.5 hours driving time along the M6 & A14 etc count towards the entertainment value too?

Edited December 12, 2016 by uk martin

[Little Thumper]

 

Whatever.

 

Birmingham to Snetterton = 142 miles (per Giggle Maps) thus 284 miles there and back. @55mpg in my car, that's roughly 5.16 gallons of diesel. 5.16 gallons = 23.46 litres. And at £1.11 per litre at Asda, that's a few pennies more than £26.00 for fuel, plus £5 admission = £31.

 

Do the 5.5 hours driving time along the M6 & A14 etc count towards the entertainment value too?

 

Could you not call on some friends along the way?

[uk_martin]

Could you not call on some friends along the way?

 

You're full of bright ideas today aren't you? Add 5.5 hours to the length of a race day, subtract that from the length of the waking day and thete will be loads of time for detours and social calls won't there?

[Little Thumper]

You're full of bright ideas today aren't you? Add 5.5 hours to the length of a race day, subtract that from the length of the waking day and thete will be loads of time for detours and social calls won't there?

 

Perhaps you could set off the day before?

I'm sure AntiqueSteve could find you a bed for the night as he seems a very nice chap.

[Mike.Butler]

Friends?

Martin is the life and soul at Perry Barr so he must have loads all over..

[Little Thumper]

Friends?

Martin is the life and soul at Perry Barr so he must have loads all over..

 

Mike.Butler, I know you to be a person of impeccable character, so if you tell me that uk martin has loads of friends then I shall have to believe you, however difficult though that is.