lucifer sam Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) Going by stats alone and awarding 3-2-1 to the top three places: 1 Joe Screen 19 (2-6-1) 2 Kelvin Tatum 13 (2-3-1) 3 Michael Lee 12 (2-3-0) 4 Chris Louis 12 (2-2-2) 5= Mark Loram 10 (3-0-1) 5= Andy Smith 10 (3-0-1) 7 Dave Jessup 10 (1-2-3) 8 Kenny Carter 9 (2-1-1) 9 Peter Craven 8 (2-1-0) 10= Simon Wigg 7 (2-0-1) 10= Gary Havelock 7 (2-0-1) 12 Peter Collins 7 (1-1-2) 13= Chris Morton 6 (1-1-1) 13= Andy Grahame 6 (1-1-1) 15 Neil Evitts 5 (1-1-0) 16 Malcolm Simmons 5 (1-0-2) 17 Eric Boocock 5 (1-0-2) 18 John Louis 4 (1-0-1) Although it should be pointed out that Craven scored his 8 points from only 3 finals, before his premature death. IMO Craven, Collins and Lee are the actual top three. All the best Rob Edited November 4, 2016 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) Going by stats alone and awarding 3-2-1 to the top three places: 1 Joe Screen 19 (2-6-1) 2 Kelvin Tatum 13 (2-3-1) 3 Michael Lee 12 (2-3-0) 4 Chris Louis 12 (2-2-2) 5= Mark Loram 10 (3-0-1) 5= Andy Smith 10 (3-0-1) 7 Dave Jessup 10 (1-2-3) 8 Kenny Carter 9 (2-1-1) 9 Peter Craven 8 (2-1-0) 10= Simon Wigg 7 (2-0-1) 10= Gary Havelock 7 (2-0-1) 12 Peter Collins 7 (1-1-2) 13= Chris Morton 6 (1-1-1) 13= Andy Grahame 6 (1-1-1) 15 Neil Evitts 5 (1-1-0) 16 Malcolm Simmons 5 (1-0-2) 17 Eric Boocock 5 (1-0-2) 18 John Louis 4 (1-0-1) Although it should be pointed out that Craven scored his 8 points from only 3 finals, before his premature death. IMO Craven, Collins and Lee are the actual top three. All the best Rob Again it shows how misleading the list is in terms of ranking ability. Nobody would ever say Screen was the best British rider there has ever been but his record in the British Final itself shows it that way Edited November 4, 2016 by Gavan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) I guess Carter never met PC when PC was at his peak - PCs peak was probably 74-80, and Carters 81-86. Head to head in my era at hyde rd (81-87) Carter had an excellent head to head record (approx 3-1 ratio) against PC, against Mort it was roughly 50/50. But Carter never had a bad meeting, won two BLRC (could easily have been a 3rd), the worst i can remember was 8 points from 5 riders against Denmark in 86, falling in his last two rides (possibly both broken foot rests). I the period 81-87, PC and Mort met KC most hear 13s and never got a 5-1 against him (excluding one meeting where he broke the tapes). MAybe a 76/77 version PC and an 83/84 Mort may manage to 5-1 KC, who know i think through to 82 KC had world class equipment. From reading his biography, it seems after that he lost a little focus and certainly 1983 didn't have the same standard of machinery. Evitts I guess rode with him 84-86, and maybe its a fair comment that he didn't have machinery as good as the Danes, but certainly in 82 his bikes were as quick as anyones in the world. In 1983 against Lee home and and away 4.0 in the the helmet he looked like he was on a moped to be honest Carter was good anough to be world champion. Edited November 5, 2016 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 Well Marvyn Cox rode in(and won) the German Final in 1993,2 years after Zoltan Adjordan won it and a few years before Todd Witshire won it.In the same year as Todd won his second German title Ales Dryml finished 3rd.Just a couple of years before his brother Lukas also finished 3rd Yes, because they opted to ride with a German licence as far as I remember. I'm not sure there were any New Zealand licenses when the likes of Mauger and Briggs were around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Beevers Posted November 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 Not been here for a while but caught up with the thread. Rob, you are indeed correct and I must have read Andy Grahame's rostrum places incorrectly and he gets entered into the line up and Neil Evitts goes to reserve. This fantasy meeting would have been held at Brandon but me and Norbold were comparing the most excitable riders of all time from the UK to race around Hyde Road. As these threads seem to be interesting and reasonably commented on, I will be doing a few more in the future but in regards to this one, I won't be putting out any stat results as it turns into an era bashing for the poor 90s who had some great riders. What was odd about it? At that time Australia and New Zealand didn't have independent federations, so Commonwealth riders rode under the ACU banner. It was odd. They could have held an ACU Championship for just those riders instead of taking the places of the British riders. What about the South African riders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted November 6, 2016 Report Share Posted November 6, 2016 It was odd. They could have held an ACU Championship for just those riders instead of taking the places of the British riders. What about the South African riders? As an independent championship, that would have been fine, but where would that have fitted in with the World Championship? The British Final was just one step on the stairway to the World Final. What about the South African riders? How many South Africans were active outside of their own country during the period, or even before then? Of course, both Henry Long (1952) and Doug Davies (1955) qualified via the British rounds. As a sporting nation, South Africa was totally isolated from the rest of the world from 1960 onwards. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Beevers Posted November 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2016 As an independent championship, that would have been fine, but where would that have fitted in with the World Championship? The British Final was just one step on the stairway to the World Final. I would have said in the same way that a Commonwealth Final was brought into the system many years later but unfortunately it was not thought of fast enough before Mauger and Briggs had won all those British titles. I wonder if many people back then on the terraces used to say what a joke it was or 'that Mauger shouldn't be riding in are Championship'. I would guess from the comments, is that noone was bothered and fans back than felt 'blessed'that Mauger and Briggs took part in the competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted November 6, 2016 Report Share Posted November 6, 2016 I would have said in the same way that a Commonwealth Final was brought into the system many years later but unfortunately it was not thought of fast enough before Mauger and Briggs had won all those British titles. I wonder if many people back then on the terraces used to say what a joke it was or 'that Mauger shouldn't be riding in are Championship'. I would guess from the comments, is that noone was bothered and fans back than felt 'blessed'that Mauger and Briggs took part in the competition. Even if there had been a Commonwealth Final back then - with the qualifiers coming from a separate series of meetings - whose responsibility would it have been to run those events? There were no governing bodies in Aussie and NZ back then, so it would have still been down to the British authorities. If they were going to go to all that trouble, then it was just as easy to lump them all into a single qualifying series of events, which they did. Also, consider that there were an enormous number of Commonwealth riders in action in the UK back then. Of course people didn't complain about it being a joke in those days. Firstly, people weren't so intolerant and resentful in those days, and secondly, it was all they knew! It wasn't just a case of being in the World Championship, either; they represented us in team events too. It's just the way it was then, and few - if any - had any real problem with it... Look at all the things that were acceptable in the old days, that would be unthinkable now. That's not necessarily because they were "wrong", but it's all the idiots, activists, and the perpetually offended that want everyting THEIR way today. Just the way that society has gone. Steve Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruiser McHuge Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 As an Aces fan who attended every meeting at Hyde Road from 1978 to its closure I would definitely say Carter was better than Morton round Hyde Road..and I would say Carter's peak was also Morton's peak..he was also better than Collins in this era as well but Collins peak was way before Carter's so that's not as fair a comparison... I would say in that Carter was probably the second best rider round Hyde Road in my time...the honour of the best goes to Gundersen...but Carter was definitely a great visitor even though Halifax were generally poor visitors the races between Carter, Morton and Collins were usually wort the admission despite Carter winning most of them ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Carter ahead of gundersen for me Bruiser. gundersen had the odd poor meeting, Carter never did. I reckon carter averaged a point a meetung more than gundersen. I saw Ross and smith beat gundersen in the league, I only ever saw mort and very occasionally pc beat Kenny. 2 blrc apiece. Very interesting to read your thoughts, I attended pretty much every week from 81 to the beginning if the 87 season. Best 4 riders round Hyde rd in that period: Carter gundersen Morton nielsen Next 4: penhall s Moran pc Ross next 4: knudsen olsen smith lee next 4: sigalos l Collins ermolenko sanders. What a meeting that would be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) Back on topic: just watched the 76 British final on you tube. Simmons scored an immaculate maximum, but pc the real star of the show and surely favourite for the champion of champions title. craven and Lee to join him on the podium. Assuming 8 to qualify for the commonwealth final: add kc Simmons jessup and Loram to the list? Tatum and havelock if it's 10 qualifiers. Edited November 9, 2016 by waihekeaces1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) Back on topic: just watched the 76 British final on you tube. Simmons scored an immaculate maximum, but pc the real star of the show and surely favourite for the champion of champions title. craven and Lee to join him on the podium. Assuming 8 to qualify for the commonwealth final: add kc Simmons jessup and Loram to the list? Tatum and havelock if it's 10 qualifiers. Ok, I'll nail my colours to the mast for the 10 qualifiers to the Commonwealth Final: 1. Peter Craven 2. Peter Collins 3. Michael Lee 4. Mark Loram 5. John Louis 6. Malcolm Simmons 7. Dave Jessup 8. Simon Wigg 9. Gary Havelock 10. Joe Screen (Reserve. Kenny Carter) All the best Rob Edited November 9, 2016 by lucifer sam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Carter surely has to be top 10? Britain were still strong in the early 80s, and he missed the podium only once in his peak years, including of course the back to back victories, one with a broken leg. Closer to the podium than missing out imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 10, 2016 Report Share Posted November 10, 2016 (edited) Carter surely has to be top 10? Britain were still strong in the early 80s, and he missed the podium only once in his peak years, including of course the back to back victories, one with a broken leg. Closer to the podium than missing out imo. We're talking about a Champions Of Champions British Final meeting, though. All are good riders and some have to miss out. In my opinion, Carter would struggle to finish in the top ten against that kind of company. Nearly all the other riders are more decorated than him - KC won two British Finals, two BLRCs and a World Pairs and that's about it. Not much when you stack it against the other riders in the list, some of whom have a huge list of individual honours. Also, Carter lost the 1981 British Final to Steve Bastable. With all due respect to Stevie B, he's probably the weakest British Champ, and I can't imagine him winning e.g. against Louis/Simmo/PC were at their pomp in the mid-70s. Yet he beat Carter in '81. It's tricky when comparing eras. I would rate e.g. Joe Screen above Kenny Carter. Screen was amazingly good during his Bradford years. Others will disagree and place KC above Joe. All the best Rob Edited November 10, 2016 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted November 10, 2016 Report Share Posted November 10, 2016 Ok, I'll nail my colours to the mast for the 10 qualifiers to the Commonwealth Final: 1. Peter Craven 2. Peter Collins 3. Michael Lee 4. Mark Loram 5. John Louis 6. Malcolm Simmons 7. Dave Jessup 8. Simon Wigg 9. Gary Havelock 10. Joe Screen (Reserve. Kenny Carter) All the best Rob No Carter in a top ten really? no way in a month of sundays were Wiggy/Screen,Havelock,Jessup better than Carter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruiser McHuge Posted November 10, 2016 Report Share Posted November 10, 2016 It's all about opinions but mine is Carter was way better than most on that list...he might not have been as naturally talented as Loram or Screen but I've have him above ..also I'd have him higher than Wigg and Havelock and Jessup and probably Simmons and Louis as well ..but I expect southern fans may think different as I probably saw Carter at his very best at a Hyde Road, the Shay and Owlerton 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 10, 2016 Report Share Posted November 10, 2016 It's all about opinions but mine is Carter was way better than most on that list...he might not have been as naturally talented as Loram or Screen but I've have him above ..also I'd have him higher than Wigg and Havelock and Jessup and probably Simmons and Louis as well ..but I expect southern fans may think different as I probably saw Carter at his very best at a Hyde Road, the Shay and Owlerton Maybe you're right. I didn't see the best of Carter. But I doubt if those other riders would have lost a run-off for the title to Steve Bastable, especially after gating first. Carter could put in indifferent performances - I remember the single point he scored in a test match at Oxford in 1985. Ironically he was fully fit on that occasion; unlike his heroics at Cowley with a broken leg in 1984. The bloke certainly had guts. He wasn't a PC (either one) or a Mike Lee. It is all down to opinions, and only two of us have been brave enough to put up our top ten so far All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Beevers Posted November 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2016 Ok, I'll nail my colours to the mast for the 10 qualifiers to the Commonwealth Final: 1. Peter Craven 2. Peter Collins 3. Michael Lee 4. Mark Loram 5. John Louis 6. Malcolm Simmons 7. Dave Jessup 8. Simon Wigg 9. Gary Havelock 10. Joe Screen (Reserve. Kenny Carter) All the best Rob Did John Louis come in for someone who was injured as he was reserve for the meeting. I would have said: 1) Craven 2) Loram 3) Lee 4) Jessup 5) Collins 6) Carter 7) Havelock 8) Wigg 9) Simmons 10) Boocock beats Screen in a run off. But in reality, Andy Smith always won British Finals at Brandon so would have easily beaten this whole field in his peak with a 15 point maximum. But he fell and got injured in his first ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 11, 2016 Report Share Posted November 11, 2016 Craven lee p Collins Carter Loram havelock jessup Simmons Tatum Smith 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 11, 2016 Report Share Posted November 11, 2016 Did John Louis come in for someone who was injured as he was reserve for the meeting. I had John Louis in my meeting in place of Neil Evitts. The Sunday People are investigating. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.