Joe Beevers Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) So the same rules apply and this is based on amount of British Finals won and than the criteria is than most seconds, thirds and World Final positions etc. This group of riders have an impressive 6 world titles and 30 British Final wins but who would have podiumed as masters at British Finals only. And also the rider must be not riding today. The line up: 1) Joe Screen 2) Peter Collins 3) Simon Wigg 4) Peter Craven 5) Chris Louis 6) Eric Boocock 7) Malcolm Simmons 8) Kenny Carter 9) Kelvin Tatum 10) David Jessup 11) Gary Havelock 12) Chris Morton 13) Andy Smith 14) Michael Lee 15) Andy Grahame 16) Mark Loram 17) John Louis ® 18) Neil Evitts ® Quite the frightening line up that just shows how many great speedway riders our tiny nation has produced. Edited November 5, 2016 by Joe Beevers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 Pc x 2 and Lee to be the top 3. Kc to be close to the podium Are you excluding British riders chsmpionship, and hence riders such as jack parker, Would also include j Louis ahead of evitts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) So the same rules apply and this is based on amount of British Finals won and than the criteria is than most seconds, thirds and World Final positions etc. This group of riders have an impressive 6 world titles and 30 British Final wins but who would have podiumed as masters at British Finals only. And also the rider must be not riding today. The line up: 1) Joe Screen 2) Peter Collins 3) Simon Wigg 4) Peter Craven 5) Chris Louis 6) Eric Boocock 7) Malcolm Simmons 8) Kenny Carter 9) Kelvin Tatum 10) David Jessup 11) Gary Havelock 12) Chris Morton 13) Andy Smith 14) Michael Lee 15) Neil Evitts 16) Mark Loram 17) John Louis ® 18) Ray Wilson ® Quite the frightening line up that just shows how many great speedway riders our tiny nation has produced. Great line up (especially when other superb riders eg Betts, Kennett, N.Boocock, Ashby, Kilby, Davis etc are not included due to the given criteria) Clearly proves how once great this island was in developing British talent but now sadly a thing of the past unfortunately. Sums up the state of present day speedway in this country. Edited November 3, 2016 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 I hope the draw puts Craven, Collins, Loram and Carter together in one heat. Now that would be worth seeing! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Beevers Posted November 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 Pc x 2 and Lee to be the top 3. Kc to be close to the podium Are you excluding British riders chsmpionship, and hence riders such as jack parker,Would also include j Louis ahead of evitts. May have to do a seperate thread to represent the riders for before the official British Finals which began in 1961 as there is so much quality probably in both lineups, so definitely the Jack Parkers deserve a separate mention. Yes Neil Evitts was an interesting one and suprised how good he was in the mid 80s for a reasonable space of time. He attained a first and a second in Finals which beats John Louis's first and third and both had a reasonably high World Final finishing place. Ray Wilson grabs the last spot with one title although Andy Grahame and Steve Bastable count themselves unfortunate to just miss out. Great line up (especially when other superb riders eg Betts, Kennett, N.Boocock, Ashby, Kilby, Davis etc are not included due to the given criteria) Clearly proves how once great this island was in developing British talent but now sadly a thing of the past unfortunately. Sums up the state of present day speedway in this country. Apart from young master Woffinden, I would certainly agree. Without him and I see a huge quality gap but hopefully a new breed can come along and maybe make more in roads. Robert Lambert has reasonable potential to make it far but a lot more riders are needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 For me J.Louis, Ray Wilson would be in the 16 also McKinley should be mentioned.How the British Final changed from 1973,1961/72 Briggs and Mauger winning 10 titles between them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Beevers Posted November 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 I hope the draw puts Craven, Collins, Loram and Carter together in one heat. Now that would be worth seeing! All riders at their peak would have been outstanding and more lines would have been created than a naughty child's detention blackbord essay. Tempted to swap Chris Morton for Carter at his peak and move the track to Hyde Road rather than Brandon. For me J.Louis, Ray Wilson would be in the 16 also McKinley should be mentioned.How the British Final changed from 1973,1961/72 Briggs and Mauger winning 10 titles between them. Mckinlay never won it but I can't help feeling sorry for all the British riders who had to ride against the impeccable Mauger and Briggs because they officially would have won a British Final had this odd rule not allowed this. I could not imagine the uproar on this forum if it had happened today with Jason Doyle and Chris Holder riding in a British Final. Still, it's the same feeling I have as modern riders winning a GP but had they been born 20 years earlier they would have had a World Title to their name so it swings and roundabouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 IF you move it to Hyde rd you have to have Carter. an aces fan, but I'd say Carter was best rider of his era on that track, even ahead of mort. I think if you were naming 4 for the best possible heat, it would be Loram you'd leave out. He could be in the "b" race with smith,lee and j Louis. I'd still argue j Louis ahead of evitts, as British speedway was stronger in his era, plus a better world final record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) Ray Wilson grabs the last spot with one title although Andy Grahame and Steve Bastable count themselves unfortunate to just miss out. Andy Grahame finished on the rostrum of three successive British Finals (1982-1984), with a win, second place and third place apiece... in a competitive era too. He probably has a better British Final record then several of the riders who have been included. All the best Rob Edited November 3, 2016 by lucifer sam 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 IF you move it to Hyde rd you have to have Carter. an aces fan, but I'd say Carter was best rider of his era on that track, even ahead of mort. I think if you were naming 4 for the best possible heat, it would be Loram you'd leave out. He could be in the "b" race with smith,lee and j Louis. I'd still argue j Louis ahead of evitts, as British speedway was stronger in his era, plus a better world final record. Would Carter of split a peak PC/Mort or a Collins/ Sjosten duo would of been great viewing Carter for me is there with Briggo, Ivan,Ole,Erik,P.C and Mort as some of the greatest ever riders to grace Hyde Rd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 IF you move it to Hyde rd you have to have Carter. an aces fan, but I'd say Carter was best rider of his era on that track, even ahead of mort. I think if you were naming 4 for the best possible heat, it would be Loram you'd leave out. He could be in the "b" race with smith,lee and j Louis. When I named those four (including Loram), I was thinking more of riders noted for their ability to win from the back, so wouldn't be all over at the first bend, rather than just necessarily the best four. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 Mckinlay never won it but I can't help feeling sorry for all the British riders who had to ride against the impeccable Mauger and Briggs because they officially would have won a British Final had this odd rule not allowed this. I could not imagine the uproar on this forum if it had happened today with Jason Doyle and Chris Holder riding in a British Final. What was odd about it? At that time Australia and New Zealand didn't have independent federations, so Commonwealth riders rode under the ACU banner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nw42 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 IF you move it to Hyde rd you have to have Carter. an aces fan, but I'd say Carter was best rider of his era on that track, even ahead of mort. I think if you were naming 4 for the best possible heat, it would be Loram you'd leave out. He could be in the "b" race with smith,lee and j Louis. I'd still argue j Louis ahead of evitts, as British speedway was stronger in his era, plus a better world final record. I know you're one for records, so you putting Carter ahead of Mort & PC is no doubt based on points etc but my rose tinted specs still can't get my head around that one. Carter was known for having fast machinery and on a track like Hyde Rd this was obviously imperative, he could also trap a lot better than Mort or PC but I just see them reeling him in over 3 laps and then lining him up with a big swoop on the top bend, so much speed on the back straight and going either side of Carter then team riding the pit bend to claim a 5-1 for the right side of the Pennines. Either way these match ups are mouthwatering prospects, PC, Mort, Screen & Loram would be a race I'd not want to miss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) I know you're one for records, so you putting Carter ahead of Mort & PC is no doubt based on points etc but my rose tinted specs still can't get my head around that one. Carter was known for having fast machinery and on a track like Hyde Rd this was obviously imperative, he could also trap a lot better than Mort or PC but I just see them reeling him in over 3 laps and then lining him up with a big swoop on the top bend, so much speed on the back straight and going either side of Carter then team riding the pit bend to claim a 5-1 for the right side of the Pennines. Either way these match ups are mouthwatering prospects, PC, Mort, Screen & Loram would be a race I'd not want to miss. NW could see that happening myself, just look back to the 83 NLRC when Mort reeled Carter in, in one of the best passes i have ever seen.Collins well at his peak feared nobody and he knew if he missed the gate at Hyde Rd he could pick anybody off.One thing i would say in your post did Carter always have good aquipment? was it the best? remember Evitts (who had great stuff) saying he felt Carters aquipment could of been better. Edited November 4, 2016 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 Slightly confused as how we're discussing the merits of the riders around Hyde Road, a track that never staged a single British Final. Surely any British Final Champion Of Champions would took place at Brandon, the spiritual home for the event. Of course, the BLRC Champion Of Champions would take place at Hyde Road. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 I know you're one for records, so you putting Carter ahead of Mort & PC is no doubt based on points etc but my rose tinted specs still can't get my head around that one. Carter was known for having fast machinery and on a track like Hyde Rd this was obviously imperative, he could also trap a lot better than Mort or PC but I just see them reeling him in over 3 laps and then lining him up with a big swoop on the top bend, so much speed on the back straight and going either side of Carter then team riding the pit bend to claim a 5-1 for the right side of the Pennines. Either way these match ups are mouthwatering prospects, PC, Mort, Screen & Loram would be a race I'd not want to miss. I guess Carter never met PC when PC was at his peak - PCs peak was probably 74-80, and Carters 81-86. Head to head in my era at hyde rd (81-87) Carter had an excellent head to head record (approx 3-1 ratio) against PC, against Mort it was roughly 50/50. But Carter never had a bad meeting, won two BLRC (could easily have been a 3rd), the worst i can remember was 8 points from 5 riders against Denmark in 86, falling in his last two rides (possibly both broken foot rests). I the period 81-87, PC and Mort met KC most hear 13s and never got a 5-1 against him (excluding one meeting where he broke the tapes). MAybe a 76/77 version PC and an 83/84 Mort may manage to 5-1 KC, who know NW could see that happening myself, just look back to the 83 NLRC when Mort reeled Carter in, in one of the best passes i have ever seen.Collins well at his peak feared nobody and he knew if he missed the gate at Hyde Rd he could pick anybody off.One thing i would say in your post did Carter always have good aquipment? was it the best? remember Evitts (who had great stuff) saying he felt Carters aquipment could of been better. i think through to 82 KC had world class equipment. From reading his biography, it seems after that he lost a little focus and certainly 1983 didn't have the same standard of machinery. Evitts I guess rode with him 84-86, and maybe its a fair comment that he didn't have machinery as good as the Danes, but certainly in 82 his bikes were as quick as anyones in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) Just goes to show how lists can be misleading. If you were to list the top 16 brits who have ever raced i would say that the likes of Screen, Smith , maybe Chris Louis and most certainly Evitts wouldnt be in it. But their British Final records are pretty impressive Edited November 4, 2016 by Gavan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 Screen smith and Louis arguably rode in an easier brit final era than say grahame Morton and evitts. who again ride in arguably an easier era than the 70s. Grahame on brit final alone surely rates ahead of some much better riders, including the likes of not just evitts bit probably Morton and others as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) What was odd about it? At that time Australia and New Zealand didn't have independent federations, so Commonwealth riders rode under the ACU banner. Well Marvyn Cox rode in(and won) the German Final in 1993,2 years after Zoltan Adjordan won it and a few years before Todd Witshire won it.In the same year as Todd won his second German title Ales Dryml finished 3rd.Just a couple of years before his brother Lukas also finished 3rd Edited November 4, 2016 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nw42 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 Slightly confused as how we're discussing the merits of the riders around Hyde Road, a track that never staged a single British Final. Surely any British Final Champion Of Champions would took place at Brandon, the spiritual home for the event. Of course, the BLRC Champion Of Champions would take place at Hyde Road. All the best Rob Well I guess we're all of a certain age and our minds have a tendency to wander off on tangents, I'll consider myself told and try my best to stay on topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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