Who Was The Best Of The British Final Nearly Men?

[Joe Beevers]

Similar to the thread I started a few months ago in regards to the best riders to have never won the World Championship, I decided to do one for the British Final.

 

Found this difficult to do as most of the early years of British Finals were won by the Antipodeans such as Briggs and Mauger so some were unfortunately not to get in but this British Final is based on a criteria of riders who have retired from speedway and have never won but been close or taken part in many.

 

Here is the list:

 

1) Doug Wyer

2) Simon Cross

3) Paul Hurry

4) John Davis

5) Dean Barker

6) Nigel Boocock

7) Carl Stonehewer

8) Alan Grahame

9) Les Collins

10) Ron How

11) David Norris

12) Terry Betts

13) Jeremy Doncaster

14) Ken McKinlay

15) Martin Dugard

16) Phil Collins

17) Roy Trigg - Reserve

18) Colin Pratt - Reserve

 

All these riders have rostrumed either once or multiple times without winning except for Les Collins who gets through with two 4ths and a W.C rostrum and the two reserves who also did not rostrum but have made World Finals/GPS to be considered.

 

May make changes though but a good strong lineup and will put a result down laterbin the thread perhaps.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Joe Beevers

[steve roberts]

Gordon Kennett has to be in there somewhere.

[Midland Red]

Has to be The Beau

[BL65]

Ron How (1964) and Roy Trigg (1970) would feature high in a list of Brtish Final rostrum finishers. Having see all of the riders mentioned at their best, I would rank the top three as Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock and Ron How.

[Joe Beevers]

Gordon Kennett has to be in there somewhere.

I thought about putting Gordon in but his results in British Finals have been strangely poor.

 

Mind you his second in the one off World Final eclipses Paul Thorps and Marvyn Coxs W.F results but they had better British Final positions on the whole.

 

It's a very difficult list to do but always happy to see your opinion.

Ron How (1964) and Roy Trigg (1970) would feature high in a list of Brtish Final rostrum finishers. Having see all of the riders mentioned at their best, I would rank the top three as Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock and Ron How.

Each to their own but quite a slightly biased view on the riders in the 60s being better than the rest.

 

Basically this list is riders on individual British Final achievements and stats as my historical knowledge does not go as far back as yours so you have the advantage on me.

 

I shall explain my theory on these two riders.

 

Riders with one third place in a British Final:

Colin Pratt

Carl Stonehewer

Roy Trigg

Ron Howe

 

Basically Colin Pratt and Carl Stonehewer qualified due to the fact they made a World Final/GP so that gives them extra points.

 

Now Les Collins did not get a 3rd but got 2 4th place finishes that with my working out would equal a 3rd place finish which i.m.o sounds fair.

 

Also Les has a 3rd place in a World Final unlike Trigg. Unfortunately I can not find any World Finals Ron How has been in but please correct me if I am wrong.

 

So they could probably both be at reserve although Thorp and Cox both had a fourth in the B.F and but as they made World Finals and finished in the top half of World Finals, I considered them the overall better riders but I am happy to exchange them or Colin Pratt if How made a World Final and had a performance that was superior to the riders above.

 

All the other riders in the list got a second or multiple rostrums.

[BL65]

Regarding McKinlay, Boocock and How, I am influenced by the quality of their opposition in British Finals and the fact that McKinlay qualified for 8 world finals (plus 3 as reserve), with Boocock appearing in 9 world finals (plus 2 as reserve). Ron How rode in 6 world finals and would probably have qualified for more had his career not been ended by injury in 1965. His 'hobby' was also defeating Ove Fundin on a regular basis. Ken's world final appearances spanned 12 seasons and Nigel's record covered 17 seasons.

[norbold]

I agree with BL65 for the reasons given.

[customhouseregular]

So do I

[Joe Beevers]

Regarding McKinlay, Boocock and How, I am influenced by the quality of their opposition in British Finals and the fact that McKinlay qualified for 8 world finals (plus 3 as reserve), with Boocock appearing in 9 world finals (plus 2 as reserve). Ron How rode in 6 world finals and would probably have qualified for more had his career not been ended by injury in 1965. His 'hobby' was also defeating Ove Fundin on a regular basis. Ken's world final appearances spanned 12 seasons and Nigel's record covered 17 seasons.

 

Ron How will be entered into the top 16 and Colin Pratt moves to reserve.

 

I actually agree in some ways on the strength but I think more of a deciding factor as well which I have thought about is that How and Trigg would have both won British Titles had the Antipodeans not been there so technically they are British Champions.

 

That also adds further debate because this list is not for British Champions but for the nearly men. But as the records state it is technically a third and would that mean now that both Trigg and Tony Lomas should come in above Carl Stonehewer who rode 2 or 3 world finals and Les Collins who is next in line. So do I rate Trigg and Lomas as better than Stonehewer and Collins just because of several posters opinions on what decade was stronger. This is purely a fictional statistical lineup.

 

I am not sure why you are debating Mckinlay and Boocock as they are already in the lineup and I fully agree they should be there.

 

To be honest, I am not biased against the 60s but I thought that post was because I didn't mention Steve Schofield who also picked up a third but due to poor other B.F and W.C results does not make the list above even though I think he may have been a World Grasstrack or Longtrack champion.

I would appreciate if a few others did a list and than democracy would make a new list that we would all agree on.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Joe Beevers

[BL65]

Ron How will be entered into the top 16 and Colin Pratt moves to reserve.

 

I actually agree in some ways on the strength but I think more of a deciding factor as well which I have thought about is that How and Trigg would have both won British Titles had the Antipodeans not been there so technically they are British Champions.

 

That also adds further debate because this list is not for British Champions but for the nearly men. But as the records state it is technically a third and would that mean now that both Trigg and Tony Lomas should come in above Carl Stonehewer who rode 2 or 3 world finals and Les Collins who is next in line. So do I rate Trigg and Lomas as better than Stonehewer and Collins just because of several posters opinions on what decade was stronger. This is purely a fictional statistical lineup.

 

I am not sure why you are debating Mckinlay and Boocock as they are already in the lineup and I fully agree they should be there.

 

To be honest, I am not biased against the 60s but I thought that post was because I didn't mention Steve Schofield who also picked up a third but due to poor other B.F and W.C results does not make the list above even though I think he may have been a World Grasstrack or Longtrack champion.

I would appreciate if a few others did a list and than democracy would make a new list that we would all agree on.

Joe, the comment I made about McKinlay, Boocock and How was that out of all of the riders referred to they were the ones who I considered to be the top three and would have been worthy British Champions because of their ability to win a high proportion of races season after season over a prolonged period.

[BOBBATH]

I also have to go with McKinlay, Boocock and How-interesting thread though

[Joe Beevers]

Ok based on statistics mainly from a combination of British Finals and than World Finals with riders at their prime, this is how I think the results may have looked:

 

1) Nigel Boocock 13 (after a run off)

2) Martin Dugard 13

3) Ken McKinlay 12

4=) Jeremy Doncaster 11

4=) Ron How 11

6=) Doug Wyer 9

6=) Alan Grahame 9

6=) David Norris 9

9) Phil Collins 8

10=) Simon Cross 7

10=) Les Collins 7

12=) Carl Stonehewer 6

12=) John Davis 6

14) Dean Barker 4

15) Terry Betts 3

16) Paul Hurry 2

Edited October 30, 2016 by Joe Beevers

[lucifer sam]

Surely Marvyn Cox was a far better rider than Paul Hurry? Dean Barker for that matter as well.

 

And 1978 World No 2 Gordon Kennett is a huge omission.

 

All the best

Rob

[waiheke1]

Betts finishing below Hurry, barker etc?

Dugard 2nd?

I think you have failed to take into account the quality of the respective British final fields

[The Third Man]

What about Reg Wilson

[Joe Beevers]

As I stated, I think if everyone does a line up or finishing order its easier to compare.

 

I would appreciate also if the posts in thw thread were read before quick comments passed but I will defend my list this time

 

 

Firstly I agree Marvyn Cox was probably a better rider than Barker and Hurry but not on British Final stats and weakness of fields per year is everyone's opinion of course.

So Barkers 2nd and 3rd and Hurrys 2nd and 3rd eclipse anything Cox has done in a British Final although on the World Level he has done more. It for me is who has done best at British Finals as a first criteria.

 

I have already explained Kennetts omission.

 

Terry Betts is a fair point and would have probably placed above Barker at peak but he is already ahead of Hurry? The problem is its harder to define a stronger era as anyone could argue the strongest era because usually it is what era you grew up in and nobody budges, so this is done on fantasy stats.

 

I disagree with Dugard not being second.

Firstly his B.F results are better than anyone elses except Boocock and he had just as competitive field when he competed such as Havelock and Loram who were World Champions and riders like Smith, Louis,Tatum,Doncaster, Screen, Cox and Thorp who had made World Finals.

 

Secondly and the most valid point is he was the only rider in the field to have won a GP which in the old days equates to a World Final win beating riders like Rickardsson, Gollob, Crump and Nielsen I think plus the fact he was a top rider for a while.

 

Like I said before this is stat based.

 

Reg Wilson? Didn't he win a final so he is not a nearly man.

[Sidney the robin]

Reg Wilson did not win a British Final but he could of done if the Final had been shared around ie) Sheffield(ect).

[steve roberts]

Ray (not Reg) Wilson who became British Champion in 1973 when the event was held at Sheffield.

Edited October 31, 2016 by steve roberts

[Joe Beevers]

I put Ray Wilson down in my title winners thread at No 18 but for some reason the topic I did yesterday has not appeared.

 

I am not sure where Reg Wilson has come from, as he never podiumed a British Final nor won one.

[Guest compost]

Three other names you might want to consider would be Martin Ashby, Mike Broadbank and Bob Kilby. I suggest that all 3 would be ahead of Paul Hurry, Dean Barker, Carl Stonehewer and David Norris and possibly several others in your list.