daveallan81 Posted October 25, 2016 Report Share Posted October 25, 2016 In the 1979 Intercontinental Final, Ivan Mauger leads a 3-man run-off for 3rd place from Finn Thomsen and Dave Jessup. On the last bend, Mauger slows and moves out and the others pass him. Afterwards Ivan explains it was to do with what start number he would get in the World Final. How did this system work and how long was it in place? From Wikipedia (which awards Mauger 4th at White City for some reason) it doesn't seem to be consistent from year to year, certainly around that time. In 1978 Olsen won the ICF and wore #15 in the final, the same number Mauger was awarded for finishing 5th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
False dawn Posted October 25, 2016 Report Share Posted October 25, 2016 From memory it had been common to declare the draw for later rounds (these were drawn out of a hat meaning it was different each year). Ivan was the first to admit to engineering a result to gain a more advantageous draw. His admission led to change in the rules. The draw for later rounds only took place once the previous round had taken place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveallan81 Posted October 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2016 Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted October 25, 2016 Report Share Posted October 25, 2016 Seem to remember a Intercontinental Final in the late 80's where Hans Nielsen or Erik Gundersen (can't remember which one) had worked out that a certain finishing position would give them the inside gate when they met in the World Final. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted October 25, 2016 Report Share Posted October 25, 2016 All very interesting in light of the current Greg Hancock controversy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveallan81 Posted October 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2016 Seem to remember a Intercontinental Final in the late 80's where Hans Nielsen or Erik Gundersen (can't remember which one) had worked out that a certain finishing position would give them the inside gate when they met in the World Final. Late eighties - interesting. Must investigate further. All very interesting in light of the current Greg Hancock controversy! The theory currently being touted in the Allan household would make the Hancock threads read like a nursery rhyme. Sadly due to the highly sensitive nature of the subject matter I couldn't possibly put it in print anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 26, 2016 Report Share Posted October 26, 2016 Late eighties - interesting. Must investigate further. I reckon it was mid 80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 26, 2016 Report Share Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) I reckon it was mid 80s. 1988 ICF at Vetlanda. Nielsen out to finish second in three-man run-off for second place (i.e. finish third in the meeting). Shut off coming off the final bend; the following Gundersen also shut off. Gundersen crossed the line first, but ref gave the win to Nielsen. The last time the draw was made before the final was 1990. I believe it changed with the introduction of the World Semi-Finals in 1991. At that point, the draw was only made after the semis, not before them. All the best Rob Edited October 26, 2016 by lucifer sam 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 26, 2016 Report Share Posted October 26, 2016 1988 ICF at Vetlanda. Nielsen out to finish second in three-man run-off for second place (i.e. finish third in the meeting). Shut off coming off the final bend; the following Gundersen also shut off. Gundersen crossed the line first, but ref gave the win to Nielsen. The last time the draw was made before the final was 1990. I believe it changed with the introduction of the World Semi-Finals in 1991. At that point, the draw was only made after the semis, not before them. All the best Rob Why would the referee give it to Nielsen? Gundersen was also clearly sitting behind deliberately so would have been just as guilty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 26, 2016 Report Share Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) Why would the referee give it to Nielsen? Gundersen was also clearly sitting behind deliberately so would have been just as guilty. Dunno - it was the controversial Polish ref who staged the 1981 ICF in torrential rain against the wishes of 14 of the riders, so who knows what was in his mind? I've never seen a video of it. But the report (from Phil Rising, I believe) was pretty unambiguous and stated Gundersen crossed the line first, but Nielsen was given first place. Of course, had it been a two-man run-off rather than three (Jonsson was third), then Nielsen could have done the same as Mauger in 1979 and simply pulled off the track. All the best Rob Edited October 26, 2016 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted October 27, 2016 Report Share Posted October 27, 2016 1988 ICF at Vetlanda. Nielsen out to finish second in three-man run-off for second place (i.e. finish third in the meeting). Shut off coming off the final bend; the following Gundersen also shut off. Gundersen crossed the line first, but ref gave the win to Nielsen. The last time the draw was made before the final was 1990. I believe it changed with the introduction of the World Semi-Finals in 1991. At that point, the draw was only made after the semis, not before them. All the best Rob Just watched the video of the 1988 icident. Yes Nielsen shuts off on the final bend to try and get second place; and with Gundersen doing likewise in second and Jonsson coming up quickly, all three go over the line almost together. BUT Nielsen still just goes over first. That is why the ref gave him the win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 27, 2016 Report Share Posted October 27, 2016 1988 ICF at Vetlanda. Nielsen out to finish second in three-man run-off for second place (i.e. finish third in the meeting). Shut off coming off the final bend; the following Gundersen also shut off. Gundersen crossed the line first, but ref gave the win to Nielsen. The last time the draw was made before the final was 1990. I believe it changed with the introduction of the World Semi-Finals in 1991. At that point, the draw was only made after the semis, not before them. All the best Rob Yeah your right. I think the article I'm thinking of maybe cane from 90. Did nielsen do something in the ic final to give the impression he was happy not to win to get a good draw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 27, 2016 Report Share Posted October 27, 2016 Just watched the video of the 1988 icident. Yes Nielsen shuts off on the final bend to try and get second place; and with Gundersen doing likewise in second and Jonsson coming up quickly, all three go over the line almost together. BUT Nielsen still just goes over first. That is why the ref gave him the win! GC, have you got a link? Thanks. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted October 27, 2016 Report Share Posted October 27, 2016 GC, have you got a link? Thanks. All the best Rob I think this will take you to a dropbox link https://www.dropbox.com/s/n71btw00t4xu4sh/ICF%201988.avi?dl=0 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) I think this will take you to a dropbox link https://www.dropbox.com/s/n71btw00t4xu4sh/ICF%201988.avi?dl=0 Yeah. Nielsen just finishes first. (EDit - Have to laugh at both Nielsen and Gundersen looking down at their engines afterwards.) Edited October 28, 2016 by grachan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 Yeah. Nielsen just finishes first. (EDit - Have to laugh at both Nielsen and Gundersen looking down at their engines afterwards.) I had to laugh that, according to what has been said here, the Speedway Star report of the incident may not be 100% reliable. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) I think this will take you to a dropbox link https://www.dropbox.com/s/n71btw00t4xu4sh/ICF%201988.avi?dl=0 Cheers GC. It's very close - but as you say, the ref got it right. Nielsen JUST finishes first. (And both of them looking down at their bikes is very funny. For 2016, read 1988 ). Draw numbers for final: Nielsen 9, Gundersen 1, Jonsson 12. It's arguable whether 1 or 9 is a better draw, but I guess it was all about getting the better gate in the race between the two (Heat 5) in the final. What's interesting is the number than Ivan avoided in 1979. No 13. Generally thought of as the best draw number, but Ivan wanted No 15. "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose." Indeed All the best Rob Edited October 28, 2016 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) Yes, it is a little surprising that Ivan was so keen on the 15, That number has the last two rides in successive heats 16 and 17 which is is quite a thing if you are going for the championship and then have so little time between such crucial races. But I imagine it is a measure of his supreme confidence in his own ability that he felt that was better than the alternative. Number 13 has it's successive rides in heats 4 and 5 and I understand that Ivan was more concerned that any major changes he may need to make are much more likely to come after his first ride, and that is much more difficult to get done with so little time. Of course there us just the psycological thing as well. I bet it gives you quite a mental buzz to have the run off in the bag and then manipulate the result to your will. It may be less to with the draw and more to do with the feeling of superiority it can give over your rivals. Having said that, Ivan may have felt on cloud 9 for pulling it off in 1979, as evidenced by his face when interviewed for ITV. He was SO enjoying the moment. But I imagine Hans felt a lot less 'boosted' when he plan failed and he had to return to the pits rather sheepishly. . Edited October 28, 2016 by Grand Central Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) But I imagine Hans felt a lot less 'boosted' when he plan failed and he had to return to the pits rather sheepishly. . I guess so, although he might have been philosophical that the 'plan' hadn't worked in '88 as in '87, and that No 9 wasn't a terrible draw in any case. 1987 ICF: Nielsen allows Jimmy Nilsen through in their final race, finishes 3rd rather than 2nd in the meeting, and gets two inside gates against Gundersen over the two-day world final; the second in Heat 23 is particularly pivotal. All the best Rob Edited October 28, 2016 by lucifer sam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Beevers Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 And people complain about Poole's gamesmanship. Mauger and Nielsen were excellent riders but they would do anything to gain an advantage whether it was right or wrong. Very interesting topic though and do not recall it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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