Belle Vue 2017

[orion]

I HAVE already told you that then track was inspected on Friday and deemed to be okay. And on Saturday morning too.

 

I am not sticking up for anyone. What SS intends doing is printing various documents that will show exactly what went on regarding the track, before and after opening night. You can then draw your own conclusions. But MCC seemingly don't want that.

 

Also, regarding rent. David Gordon says that the NSS was never formally handed over to them and rent due because the stadium was never completed - no back straight terrace, no permanent toilets and various other faults, including a leaking grandstand roof, as per their contract. Again, we will publish documents to supplement his argument as and when we can.

So all the people like havy etc etc and all the people who put it on here were just made up and got lucky when the meeting was called off ? have naïve are you ? the bottom line is up to Gordon and Morton to make sure that track was going to raceable at that time of night and clearly they had not done enough tests etc to be sure that was going to happen .

 

No doubt your be showing documents that is was ok not to pay riders wages etc ...it's amazing that they got their promoters licence taken away as according to you it was everything was someone else's fault

Edited February 7, 2017 by orion

[Aces51]

This latest, 2017 version, of the events of last March is certainly advantageous to DG and CM.

 

I am just not sure that it 'chimes' with contemporaneous reports and recollections that were recorded last year.

Closer to the night in question.

 

The idea that the track was 'okay' during the day of the GOM but then massively deteriorated just in the coldoif the evening is one that I have only read in recent weeks. And even then from only one person.

 

Could anyone provide a link to a quote online, or in the Star, where this specific claim was made around the time of the meeting itself?

Or at any time during 2016.

 

My recollection is that David Gordon and Chris Morton put forward the explanation that the track was fine the day before and that it was a drop in temperature on the day that caused water to rise to the surface when they attended the SCB for the hearing into the opening meeting. If memory is correct I think that was reported in the Speedway Star, I know I read it somewhere because it was as a result of that and other information I gleaned that I made a number of posts last summer putting forward that explanation.

So all the people like havy etc etc and all the people who put it on here were just made up and got lucky when the meeting was called off ? have naïve are you ? the bottom line is up to Gordon and Morton to make sure that track was going to raceable at that time of night and clearly they had not done enough tests etc to be sure that was going to happen .

 

No doubt your be showing documents that is was ok not to pay riders wages etc ...it's amazing that they got their promoters licence taken away as according to you it was everything was someone else's fault

 

Just think about it. It is agreed there were problems with those bends leading up to the meeting, it was believed that remedial work could be done to the track surface that would solve the problem and on the Friday it appeared that the problem had indeed been solved and we now know that was confirmed by Reeve and Bridgett. On the Saturday, the weather changed and because of the problems with the track base, which nobody knew about, water rose to the surface and caused the cancellation of the meeting. This same scenario was repeated after the first attempted repairs were carried out, an extensive practice was held and the track was fine but the weather changed and again water rose to the surface.

 

So far as the rumours prior to the meeting, they were true in so far as there were problems with the track but none of the people repeating those rumours seem to have been aware that work had been done which appeared to solve the problem and that the track had been inspected by SCB officials who thought it would be OK for the meeting. Certainly none of the rumours I saw made any mention of those matters or indeed that any of the riders repeating them had actually been to the track.

 

I believe Phillip Rising and do those with doubts really believe he would name Reeve and Bridgett and say he has seen documentary proof if it were untrue.

[foamfence]

So all the people like havy etc etc and all the people who put it on here were just made up and got lucky when the meeting was called off ? have naïve are you ? the bottom line is up to Gordon and Morton to make sure that track was going to raceable at that time of night and clearly they had not done enough tests etc to be sure that was going to happen .

 

No doubt your be showing documents that is was ok not to pay riders wages etc ...it's amazing that they got their promoters licence taken away as according to you it was everything was someone else's fault

Interpreter please!

[orion]

 

My recollection is that David Gordon and Chris Morton put forward the explanation that the track was fine the day before and that it was a drop in temperature on the day that caused water to rise to the surface when they attended the SCB for the hearing into the opening meeting. If memory is correct I think that was reported in the Speedway Star, I know I read it somewhere because it was as a result of that and other information I gleaned that I made a number of posts last summer putting forward that explanation.

 

Just think about it. It is agreed there were problems with those bends leading up to the meeting, it was believed that remedial work could be done to the track surface that would solve the problem and on the Friday it appeared that the problem had indeed been solved and we now know that was confirmed by Reeve and Bridgett. On the Saturday, the weather changed and because of the problems with the track base, which nobody knew about, water rose to the surface and caused the cancellation of the meeting. This same scenario was repeated after the first attempted repairs were carried out, an extensive practice was held and the track was fine but the weather changed and again water rose to the surface.

 

So far as the rumours prior to the meeting, they were true in so far as there were problems with the track but none of the people repeating those rumours seem to have been aware that work had been done which appeared to solve the problem and that the track had been inspected by SCB officials who thought it would be OK for the meeting. Certainly none of the rumours I saw made any mention of those matters or indeed that any of the riders repeating them had actually been to the track.

 

I believe Phillip Rising and do those with doubts really believe he would name Reeve and Bridgett and say he has seen documentary proof if it were untrue.

How could anything been solved if no testing had been done under race condtions at the same time of the night the meeting was going to take place etc ....and this is where the problems and the blame is .. There was massive uncertainty if the meeting was ever going be ok to race and Morton and Gordon took a massive gamble . one that never worked out .

 

The bottom line that meeting should have taken place when not enough testing time had been done and was only given a chance run due to amount of tickets that had been sold .

[OveFundinFan]

It seems to me, Orion, that when/if all the facts are known you still not going to believe the reality.

To suggest that practice prior to the meeting day should should have place in the evening is beyond normality. I dont know the rules about running even practice races at that time of day (evening) as to whether they are allowed by the councils permit of use. There had been a practice couple days before and all seemed ok. The actual problem wasnt known ie that the MCC contractors had rushed out of the stadium and not completed bends 3-4 to the specification - and BV speedway didnt know (if they had I am sure they would have got the contractors to sort.

I can see why BV failed to pay the rent - the property they were renting was not completed to a satisfactory standard (bend 3-4, and back straight stand/loos), and more then that because the property was not fit for purpose (in its entirety) it cost DG/CM money and hassle trying to run the business.

 

I am of the opinion that there is something behind all this that I do hope comes out. The fact that Buster let fly with words on the Saturday night was not good, those riders have raced on worse tracks before AND since that night, the accusation some tracks seem not to have promoted the British Final by selling tickets brings up queries in my head. So much we dont know, that I truly do get to know then this can be put to bed and we can all move on and enjoy speedway at the UK's premier permanent track.

[BluTiger]

Belle Vue 2017 has become Groundhog Day, i'm expecting Bill Murray to be announced at No 1 soon...

[ouch]

How could anything been solved if no testing had been done under race condtions at the same time of the night the meeting was going to take place etc ....and this is where the problems and the blame is .. There was massive uncertainty if the meeting was ever going be ok to race and Morton and Gordon took a massive gamble . one that never worked out .

 

The bottom line that meeting should have taken place when not enough testing time had been done and was only given a chance run due to amount of tickets that had been sold .

It's COMPLETELY lost on you that even after extensive testing and the track being given the thumbs up by all involved the very next meeting was cancelled due to the unpredictable nature of the problem.

 

TBH this topic is far too complicated for some, you included to comprehend. We understand your simplistic take on it all but please, please stop repeating it.

 

I've asked the mods to contact you with regards to who I am not as this is another topic where your ignorant unsupported beliefs lead to the tedious repetitive nature of your posts.

[orion]

It seems to me, Orion, that when/if all the facts are known you still not going to believe the reality.

To suggest that practice prior to the meeting day should should have place in the evening is beyond normality. I dont know the rules about running even practice races at that time of day (evening) as to whether they are allowed by the councils permit of use. There had been a practice couple days before and all seemed ok. The actual problem wasnt known ie that the MCC contractors had rushed out of the stadium and not completed bends 3-4 to the specification - and BV speedway didnt know (if they had I am sure they would have got the contractors to sort.

I can see why BV failed to pay the rent - the property they were renting was not completed to a satisfactory standard (bend 3-4, and back straight stand/loos), and more then that because the property was not fit for purpose (in its entirety) it cost DG/CM money and hassle trying to run the business.

 

I am of the opinion that there is something behind all this that I do hope comes out. The fact that Buster let fly with words on the Saturday night was not good, those riders have raced on worse tracks before AND since that night, the accusation some tracks seem not to have promoted the British Final by selling tickets brings up queries in my head. So much we dont know, that I truly do get to know then this can be put to bed and we can all move on and enjoy speedway at the UK's premier permanent track.

I don't think it's above normality to run a meeting or meetings at the same set time before you run a massive meeting thats is a sell out ...I would say most people would say it's common sense ... I expect Morton and Gordon could never afford to pay the rent. lets be honest even without the paying the rent they were not paying anyone else .

 

I am sure Mr Rising will explain in great detail where the money was going .

It's COMPLETELY lost on you that even after extensive testing and the track being given the thumbs up by all involved the very next meeting was cancelled due to the unpredictable nature of the problem.

 

TBH this topic is far too complicated for some, you included to comprehend. We understand your simplistic take on it all but please, please stop repeating it.

 

I've asked the mods to contact you with regards to who I am not as this is another topic where your ignorant unsupported beliefs lead to the tedious repetitive nature of your posts.

I think is completely lost on you the pressure of having ride the meeting due to the money already taken ...not sure what you class as extensive testing ...you would have to be quite naïve or Stupid to think that two riders doing 10 laps each classes as that ..I guess that's when you come in Fred

Edited February 7, 2017 by orion

[Halifaxtiger]

I HAVE already told you that then track was inspected on Friday and deemed to be okay. And on Saturday morning too.

 

I am not sticking up for anyone. What SS intends doing is printing various documents that will show exactly what went on regarding the track, before and after opening night. You can then draw your own conclusions. But MCC seemingly don't want that.

 

Also, regarding rent. David Gordon says that the NSS was never formally handed over to them and rent due because the stadium was never completed - no back straight terrace, no permanent toilets and various other faults, including a leaking grandstand roof, as per their contract. Again, we will publish documents to supplement his argument as and when we can.

 

I have to say, Phil, that I was told that they knew there were problems the night before.

 

Its hard for me to accept - and I daresay it will be for others - that the condition of the track was only noted on the actual afternoon and evening of the meeting and there had not been a single problem at any time prior to that.

 

That's just a little bit too convenient.

 

It also seems to me that paying no rent at all but using the stadium (whatever its faults) anyway is also hard to stomach. Not paying the full amount, maybe, but absolutely nothing ?

 

On a final note, I do hope that your article will be as impartial as possible. If you are publishing documents that bolster David Gordon's position without allowing fair rebuttal its little wonder the council are unhappy. This can't be a defence of Gordon & Chris Morton, but a genuine attempt to get at the truth of the matter.

 

EDIT : I have just noted your post about asking the council to comment but being ignored. If that's the case, it is not you who will make your article seem biased but them.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Halifaxtiger

[ouch]

You're coming over as one of the cranks who wear a sandwich board declaring the end is nigh. One day they will be correct but that in no way validates their behaviour up to that point.

I don't think it's above normality to run a meeting or meetings at the same set time before you run a massive meeting thats is a sell out ...I would say most people would say it's common sense ... I expect Morton and Gordon could never afford to pay the rent. lets be honest even without the paying the rent they were not paying anyone else .

 

I am sure Mr Rising will explain in great detail where the money was going .

 

I think is completely lost on you the pressure of having ride the meeting due to the money already taken ...not sure what you class as extensive testing ...you would have to be quite naïve or Stupid to think that two riders doing 10 laps each classes as that ..I guess that's when you come in Fred

You missunderstand. Read or re read my post dated 02/01/17 re the practice session.

[Shale Searcher]

I HAVE already told you that then track was inspected on Friday and deemed to be okay. And on Saturday morning too.

 

I am not sticking up for anyone. What SS intends doing is printing various documents that will show exactly what went on regarding the track, before and after opening night. You can then draw your own conclusions. But MCC seemingly don't want that.

 

Also, regarding rent. David Gordon says that the NSS was never formally handed over to them and rent due because the stadium was never completed - no back straight terrace, no permanent toilets and various other faults, including a leaking grandstand roof, as per their contract. Again, we will publish documents to supplement his argument as and when we can.

 

Is not opening the gates, charging people to get in to watch, riders arriving and getting changed ready?

Surely that's an indication that Morton and Co have taken the stadium?

 

Morton and Gordon should NOT have accepted the stadium in that condition, but they did.. and then defaulted on rent..

 

If they weren't prepared to pay rent, should not have accepted the stadium, without written confirmation from MCC that snagging gangs would be in attendance until all finished to spec..

[Halifaxtiger]

Is not opening the gates, charging people to get in to watch, riders arriving and getting changed ready?

Surely that's an indication that Morton and Co have taken the stadium?

 

Morton and Gordon should NOT have accepted the stadium in that condition, but they did.. and then defaulted on rent..

 

If they weren't prepared to pay rent, should not have accepted the stadium, without written confirmation from MCC that snagging gangs would be in attendance until all finished to spec..

 

To be fair to Gordon & Morton, they had little choice but to move in. The only other option was shutting the Aces & Colts down for a season.

 

I do agree, though, that paying absolutely nothing was most unreasonable. For all its faults, they used it as their home base throughout the season and that means that they should have paid something.

[Red Flag]

Belle Vue 2017 has become Groundhog Day, i'm expecting Bill Murray to be announced at No 1 soon...

What average does he come in on?

[proud panther]

Surely if no rent was paid to the council, there should have been ample funds to have paid the riders ?

[PHILIPRISING]

So all the people like havy etc etc and all the people who put it on here were just made up and got lucky when the meeting was called off ? have naïve are you ? the bottom line is up to Gordon and Morton to make sure that track was going to raceable at that time of night and clearly they had not done enough tests etc to be sure that was going to happen .

 

No doubt your be showing documents that is was ok not to pay riders wages etc ...it's amazing that they got their promoters licence taken away as according to you it was everything was someone else's fault

I HAVE never said it was everyone else's fault. In fact, I am not taking sides. I repeat, in case your grasp of English is at fault, the track was inspected on Friday and Saturday. Whether it was unfit earlier in the week is irrelevant. And was Havvy at the NSS to see for himself?

 

Why would Gordon and Morton go ahead knowing that the meeting wouldn't take place and that they would have to refund all the money? Where is the logic in that?

 

Having their promoters licence taken away was a direct consequent of the losses incurred because of the opening night debacle and what followed. The huge errors made with the building of the track on turns 3 and 4 were nothing to do with Gordon and Morton no matter what you think of them. And we have the documents to prove it.

 

To be fair to Gordon & Morton, they had little choice but to move in. The only other option was shutting the Aces & Colts down for a season.

 

I do agree, though, that paying absolutely nothing was most unreasonable. For all its faults, they used it as their home base throughout the season and that means that they should have paid something.

WE also have documents from a reputable firm of 'loss assessors' who have itemised the cost to BV Speedway as a result of cancelled or postponed meetings. And don't forget that Gordon and Morton had to pay for temporary terracing on the back straight, portaloos, etc., all of which should have been in place by the time the stadium was opened. And it was the contractors, ISG, who provided BV with an opening date of March 19 with the promise that all work would be completed by then. The remarkable thing is that the sum (several hundred thousand pounds) provided by the loss assessors matches exactly the sum MCC withheld from ISG as a result of the track defects. But no compensation was paid to BV Speedway.

 

That's another document MCC aren't happy about us acquiring.

 

Morton and Gordon should NOT have accepted the stadium in that condition, but they did.. and then defaulted on rent..

 

If they weren't prepared to pay rent, should not have accepted the stadium, without written confirmation from MCC that snagging gangs would be in attendance until all finished to spec..

GORDON and Morton will argue that they never "accepted or signed off" on the stadium so no rent was due but they took possession under a temporary agreement with rent being deferred until the stadium was "fit for purpose."

[Hyde Road]

I HAVE never said it was everyone else's fault. In fact, I am not taking sides. I repeat, in case your grasp of English is at fault, the track was inspected on Friday and Saturday. Whether it was unfit earlier in the week is irrelevant. And was Havvy at the NSS to see for himself?

 

Why would Gordon and Morton go ahead knowing that the meeting wouldn't take place and that they would have to refund all the money? Where is the logic in that?

 

Having their promoters licence taken away was a direct consequent of the losses incurred because of the opening night debacle and what followed. The huge errors made with the building of the track on turns 3 and 4 were nothing to do with Gordon and Morton no matter what you think of them. And we have the documents to prove it.

WE also have documents from a reputable firm of 'loss assessors' who have itemised the cost to BV Speedway as a result of cancelled or postponed meetings. And don't forget that Gordon and Morton had to pay for temporary terracing on the back straight, portaloos, etc., all of which should have been in place by the time the stadium was opened. And it was the contractors, ISG, who provided BV with an opening date of March 19 with the promise that all work would be completed by then. The remarkable thing is that the sum (several hundred thousand pounds) provided by the loss assessors matches exactly the sum MCC withheld from ISG as a result of the track defects. But no compensation was paid to BV Speedway.

 

That's another document MCC aren't happy about us acquiring.

Thanks for the update. I look forward to the article in SS - I hope you print it soon but can understand your caution. It really doesn't matter about the facts for some people - once the pitchforks are out - there has to be a linching regardlesss!!!

[SPD444]

From what you have said there Philip, putting aside what did or did not happen at or before the GOM, if I was one of the two new owners I would make sure my contract with MCC was so watertight that any future issues or "promises" made would be covered. Tell me though, why if all the terracing should have been completed and it wasn't why aren't Gordon and Morton making more of a defence case to support them.

[MANSE]

So what we are saying the track was fit for racing on Friday and Saturday afternoon but not for Saturday evening. Surely you would test the track for evening racing when you are going to race [We are going to fit floodlights and we will test them in the afternoon ] seems about right

[Shale Searcher]

I HAVE never said it was everyone else's fault. In fact, I am not taking sides. I repeat, in case your grasp of English is at fault, the track was inspected on Friday and Saturday. Whether it was unfit earlier in the week is irrelevant. And was Havvy at the NSS to see for himself?

 

Why would Gordon and Morton go ahead knowing that the meeting wouldn't take place and that they would have to refund all the money? Where is the logic in that?

 

Having their promoters licence taken away was a direct consequent of the losses incurred because of the opening night debacle and what followed. The huge errors made with the building of the track on turns 3 and 4 were nothing to do with Gordon and Morton no matter what you think of them. And we have the documents to prove it.

 

WE also have documents from a reputable firm of 'loss assessors' who have itemised the cost to BV Speedway as a result of cancelled or postponed meetings. And don't forget that Gordon and Morton had to pay for temporary terracing on the back straight, portaloos, etc., all of which should have been in place by the time the stadium was opened. And it was the contractors, ISG, who provided BV with an opening date of March 19 with the promise that all work would be completed by then. The remarkable thing is that the sum (several hundred thousand pounds) provided by the loss assessors matches exactly the sum MCC withheld from ISG as a result of the track defects. But no compensation was paid to BV Speedway.

 

That's another document MCC aren't happy about us acquiring.

 

GORDON and Morton will argue that they never "accepted or signed off" on the stadium so no rent was due but they took possession under a temporary agreement with rent being deferred until the stadium was "fit for purpose."

 

 

Do they have a/or document/s confirming rent free period?

[Halifaxtiger]

I HAVE never said it was everyone else's fault. In fact, I am not taking sides. I repeat, in case your grasp of English is at fault, the track was inspected on Friday and Saturday. Whether it was unfit earlier in the week is irrelevant. And was Havvy at the NSS to see for himself?

 

Why would Gordon and Morton go ahead knowing that the meeting wouldn't take place and that they would have to refund all the money? Where is the logic in that?

 

Having their promoters licence taken away was a direct consequent of the losses incurred because of the opening night debacle and what followed. The huge errors made with the building of the track on turns 3 and 4 were nothing to do with Gordon and Morton no matter what you think of them. And we have the documents to prove it.

WE also have documents from a reputable firm of 'loss assessors' who have itemised the cost to BV Speedway as a result of cancelled or postponed meetings. And don't forget that Gordon and Morton had to pay for temporary terracing on the back straight, portaloos, etc., all of which should have been in place by the time the stadium was opened. And it was the contractors, ISG, who provided BV with an opening date of March 19 with the promise that all work would be completed by then. The remarkable thing is that the sum (several hundred thousand pounds) provided by the loss assessors matches exactly the sum MCC withheld from ISG as a result of the track defects. But no compensation was paid to BV Speedway.

 

That's another document MCC aren't happy about us acquiring.

GORDON and Morton will argue that they never "accepted or signed off" on the stadium so no rent was due but they took possession under a temporary agreement with rent being deferred until the stadium was "fit for purpose."

 

 

Thanks Phil

 

Quite a few of us are making assumptions based upon limited information. Not unreasonable in my view, but they become suddenly superfluous when someone who has access to far more detailed information sets us straight.

 

I am not an avid speedway star reader, but I am not going to miss that one when you publish it.

 

​​I would say that no rent being due when they were using the stadium wouldn't cut much ice with me (unless their expenditure and a reasonable rent reduction for the faults exceeded the agreed amount, that is).