Belle Vue 2017

[proud panther]

Hope Morton hasn't lost his house through this disaster, but if he has, he definately isn't a business person. A project this big would surely be run by a Ltd company, meaning that the persons involved arent liable personaly for any debt.

[waiheke1]

Hope Morton hasn't lost his house through this disaster, but if he has, he definately isn't a business person. A project this big would surely be run by a Ltd company, meaning that the persons involved arent liable personaly for any debt.

agreed. unless the creditors thought it was such a risky project they required the directors provide personal security in case of default?

[Little Thumper]

but the money on the staidum has already been spent. Leaving it empty because you are worried the next tenants may default is hardly going to help the residents of manchester. they just need to do a good scutiny of any business plan, and insist on payments througout the season,

 

I don't like to appear negative but you would have thought that the City Council would have done this last time?

 

We are talking about millions of pounds here not just a few quid.

 

I am struggling to see how a business running speedway in Rainy City could hope to make a profit when it has to find rent 0f £200,000+ in addition to all the other expenses associated with the venture.

 

I am sure that there must be an answer to this but it would take a brain far more powerful than mine to visualize what it might be.

[Steve Shovlar]

Question. How does the velodrome pay its rent back to the council? Rarely would have any spectators other than a few people waiting to have a go.

 

So you turn up with your bike, pay a tenner for some laps? That wouldn't raise very much. A vending machine or cafe might bring in a few quid. But having a championship once a year is hardly going to stoke the coffers.

 

How do they survive? Many more people should attend Belle Vue than attend a volodrome on a weekly basis.

[OveFundinFan]

Following on from my previous post.....

My opinion on why speedway at the NSS has failed this year - a lot of the blame must go to whoever has allowed speedway in the UK to be in the shambles it is.

Whether the fault is with the BSPA or the SCB, a combination of both, or some other factor.... I dont know, I "left" speedway in the very early 1980's, and what I returned to in 2013 is VERY different to what I had seen in the 60's, 70's and 80's.What needs to be done.... a difficult one obviously but consider this

Jenson Button expressed himself re why F1 is not as popular as it was...... France has lost its F! date, Italy and Germany are struggling financially to continue, and the latest circuit is Malaysia to say it may not continue when current contract ends - losing money.

He suggests the sport is not attracting youngsters and what is needed is shorter F1 races - 90 minutes he says is too much, youngsters want shorter events to hold their attention.

Football too is 90 minutes, but its all action packed.

Speedway is action packed too, 4 riders going at it for 60 second bursts, surely that should command attention...... but not when a meeting can take up to 2 hours to complete 15 races, with nothing but boredom in between..

Speedway has the glitz going for it (shiny personalised bikes, and smart kevlars etc), but needs to connect more with supporters and more importantly, potential supporters - young supporters.

Riders need to engage more with supporters too - whenever they see an opportunity.

 

Hope Morton hasn't lost his house through this disaster, but if he has, he definately isn't a business person. A project this big would surely be run by a Ltd company, meaning that the persons involved arent liable personaly for any debt.

Perhaps Mort took a loan with his house as security, now no income he acnt pay the loan.

[waiheke1]

 

I don't like to appear negative but you would have thought that the City Council would have done this last time?

 

We are talking about millions of pounds here not just a few quid.

 

I am struggling to see how a business running speedway in Rainy City could hope to make a profit when it has to find rent 0f £200,000+ in addition to all the other expenses associated with the venture.

 

I am sure that there must be an answer to this but it would take a brain far more powerful than mine to visualize what it might be.

I assume the fact they allowed non payment is related to the opening meeting and related insurance claim. From there, it seems the only way they could be paid back is ftom the play off "pot of gold."

200k over say 20 meetings is 10k a meeting rent. What do other clubs pay? Obviously you would expect this stadium to be higher, but it should also attract the biggest crowds. 2000 fans a meeting means the first 5 quid a ticket covers the rent. don't know what the riders wages are but you'd have to assume the bulk of the next 10 quid per ticket is covering riders wages/costs for the home and away legs. WHICH means you really need sponsorship and supplementary income to be covering nearly all of the operational costs. what does it cost to run a speedway meeting, excluding rent and riders wages? 10k? SO 10k down a meeting with nil sponsorship,and some general stadium running costs. but then the play offs surely generated an extra say 100k of revenue.

It's just hard to see based on those high level assumptions how things could be do disastrously wrong?

Edited November 4, 2016 by waihekeaces1

[Little Thumper]

Question. How does the velodrome pay its rent back to the council? Rarely would have any spectators other than a few people waiting to have a go.

 

So you turn up with your bike, pay a tenner for some laps? That wouldn't raise very much. A vending machine or cafe might bring in a few quid. But having a championship once a year is hardly going to stoke the coffers.

 

How do they survive? Many more people should attend Belle Vue than attend a volodrome on a weekly basis.

 

Well I am glad you asked about Manchester Velodrome!

 

The track is in use 7 days a week from 8 in the morning until 10 at night sometimes.

 

I have finished a session there and been leaving the car park at 1030 at night.

 

There are training sessions for all abilities and ages, schools use the track, Olympic and talent teams use the track.

 

The facility is used for other events - concerts, basketball, boxing etc etc.

 

Big international meetings are held there such as the Revolution meetings and World Championships where many thousand attend.

 

And the big advantage for the velodrome is that it can be used by anyone at all and there all the perceived health benefits that are associated with cycling.

 

So the velodrome is on a far firmer financial footing than Belle Vue Arena and will be viewed as a benefit to the citizens of Manchester rather than a potential detriment.

[mikebv]

You would be doing extremely well to pay 10k for the riders I would suggest waihekeaces1...

 

Top guys circa £3k down to circa £500 to a EDR...

 

The five in the middle would be between £1k - £2k a night I would have thought from having previous conversations with several sponsors..

 

And dont forget you need to double those amounts as you have to pay the riders for an away meeting too from your home match...

 

An truly incredible business model....

 

Paying Football Championship wages on much less than Vanerama Conference attendances. !

Edited November 4, 2016 by mikebv

[BWitcher]

 

 

I went over about 3 weeks before the opening meeting and they were still building the back straight terracing and access for the machinery was via the third and fourth bends. It was pretty clear at that time that it wouldn't be ready for the opening meeting and the delay after that date in actually staging speedway says it all. Whether the construction company are to blame for the opening night fiasco is open to debate but they most certainly are to blame for the stadium not being ready on time.

 

 

You've almost hit the nail on the head here.

 

The construction company may be to blame for the stadium not being ready on time but it is the promoters who are to blame with attempting to run the opening meeting when they did. An absolutely ludicrous decision, especially given the fact it's almost a certainty they would have already spent the proceeds of the ticket sales from the event..

 

Many people said the venture (under this promotion) was dead from that day on and have been proved correct.

[waiheke1]

You would be doing extremely well to pay 10k for the riders I would suggest waihekeaces1...

 

Top guys circa £3k down to circa £500 to a EDR...

 

The five in the middle would be between £1k - £2k a night I would have thought from having previous conversations with several sponsors..

 

And dont forget you need to double those amounts as you have to pay the riders for an away meeting too from your home match...

 

An truly incredible business model....

I said the next 10 quid (I think) which would be 20k based on a crowd of 2000, so 10k per meeting.

So 3k for zagar, 2k across the 3 young brits, 5k across the other 3, seems to tie in to your figures? though i thought a chunk of zagars was covered by a sponsor?

[pugwash]

Yes there a full.paid staff all year.

 

The stadium manager.

The health and safety manager

The press officer

And the 3 track men.

 

 

Health and safety manager really

 

 

 

Yep. Really. It was our legal obligation to employ one.

I'm not 100% sure but it may be that Man City Council insisted on a stadium manager and H&S manager in the terms of the deal. It's a new build so would have to comply to reams of 'red tape' that wouldn't be applicable to an existing stadium.

It that was the case the promotion would be foolish to proceed, but maybe they had already got to a point of no return. these things are not evident at early stages of contractual negotiations.

[mikebv]

I said the next 10 quid (I think) which would be 20k based on a crowd of 2000, so 10k per meeting.

So 3k for zagar, 2k across the 3 young brits, 5k across the other 3, seems to tie in to your figures? though i thought a chunk of zagars was covered by a sponsor?

But you will need to deduct 20% VAT from your 20k (all automated at BV so cannot fudge those numbers) which immediately leaves you down to 16k.

 

And 2000 paying adults was very much a rarity, most matches at best I would say circa 1400

 

Finding the rent would be nigh on impossible on the numbers...

Edited November 4, 2016 by mikebv

[arthur cross]

More than 2 years ago ... 5th June 2014 to be precise ... I posted the following within the very early pages of the "Belle Vue National Stadium" thread within this forum's general discussions ...

 

"If the clowns that run Belle Vue are getting so excited about this basic step, no wonder they're going to be so far out of their depth if they ever have to actually run this project should it ever get completed."

 

The basic step in question was the chance for the general public to view the plans for the new stadium at their local library.

 

SInce then, various Belle Vue apologists (as well as Philip Rising and others from a more general background in speedway) have often challenged my attitude towards Dave Gordon and Chris Morton, an attitude that was based on several dealings with that duo a few years ago.

 

They've also brushed aside my fearful contempt for the whole financial structure of the National Stadium project despite my grateful acknowledgement of Manchester City Council's up-front payback-later funding of the stadium's construction.

 

Among further posts on this forum, I've noted how much extra financial pressure was put on the project when it was confirmed the repayment schedule was being cut from the original 60 years to just 24 years, thus requiring far more of the gate-money each year would need to be diverted towards that speeded-up schedule.

 

I've always been sceptical about the ability of this stadium to attract anywhere near as much off-track business (weddings & other functions, corporate days, etc) as seemed necessary to secure its cash-flow ... that scepticism was based on both the location and mismanagement angles.

 

As for the opening night fiasco and the several weeks of "not quite ready yet" snags afterwards, it was a spectacular reinforcement of the clowns' wretched inability to run the speedway side of the new stadium successfully.

 

Chris Morton was a fantastic rider and, I'm sure, is great at passing on that experience to help other riders in the pits but when it comes to financial matters he is cluelessly naive.

 

How riders kept waiting for lumps of money year after year have still remained involved with the Aces into following seasons while Dave Gordon has still been involved as well has beggared belief.

 

I repeat now what I've said several times before on this forum that I've always welcomed the idea, the building and the concept of a National Speedway Stadium and, indeed, I've welcomed its location in one of this country's biggest cities that has such a proud heritage within the sport,

 

I also feel very sorry for the loyal Belle Vue fans who've had to put up with their beloved Aces being run so deviously by these clowns for so long.

 

Manchester City Council continue to deserve support, not just for their part in building the stadium but, clearly now, their willingness to try to find a way of not being left with a "white elephant" on their books.

 

I hope there are speedway folk able to match up realistically the stadium's potential to that support from the council.

 

But. albeit many years and months too late, at least now those clowns are out of the way and I look forward to anyone who's defended Chris Morton and Dave Gordon against my criticisms in the past having the guts to admit maybe they shouldn't have been so supportive of them when being so dismissive of my observations.

 

To sum up, I rest my case very sincerely.

[Hamish McRaker]

Call me a Corbynite or a Sturgeonite, but if something is built with the use of public (or indeed private I suppose) funds and is given the title "national stadium" then the responsibility should be with the relevant public/government bodies to ensure it is successful and properly oversee it's operation and usage.

Apart from the actual meetings staged (and the majority of these were Belle Vue),what else justifies the place having this "national" label? Does training & practice take place on non-match days??

[damosuzuki]

 

I don't like to appear negative but you would have thought that the City Council would have done this last time?

 

We are talking about millions of pounds here not just a few quid.

 

I am struggling to see how a business running speedway in Rainy City could hope to make a profit when it has to find rent 0f £200,000+ in addition to all the other expenses associated with the venture.

 

I am sure that there must be an answer to this but it would take a brain far more powerful than mine to visualize what it might be.

 

 

No one know what the rental or purchase agreements will be, so don't bother trying to visualize it as you say. No point being negative about this, hopefully people with a positive attitude and good business experience get involved.

[KIRKYLANE]

Call me a Corbynite or a Sturgeonite, but if something is built with the use of public (or indeed private I suppose) funds and is given the title "national stadium" then the responsibility should be with the relevant public/government bodies to ensure it is successful and properly oversee it's operation and usage.

Apart from the actual meetings staged (and the majority of these were Belle Vue),what else justifies the place having this "national" label? Does training & practice take place on non-match days??

 

 

MCC insisted in the original planning application that it be known as the National Speedway stadium.

 

The Belle Vue promoters asked the BSPA if this would be possible and they agreed.

 

Simple as !!!

[mikebv]

Following on from my previous post.....

My opinion on why speedway at the NSS has failed this year - a lot of the blame must go to whoever has allowed speedway in the UK to be in the shambles it is.

Whether the fault is with the BSPA or the SCB, a combination of both, or some other factor.... I dont know, I "left" speedway in the very early 1980's, and what I returned to in 2013 is VERY different to what I had seen in the 60's, 70's and 80's..

Correct...

 

Many of us Aces fans, although delighted to see such a facility be built, still thought "it great but its still going to be subjected to all British Speedways ludicrous crowd damaging nonsense"....

 

People who left the sport over the past ten years or so, even if they returned to see the new stadium, quickly would realise why they left it in the first place....

[ABS]

Didn't Mark Lemons wife do the marketing at Aintree including the Grand National?

 

Maybe she could come on board with all her contacts...?

 

Certainly majorly lacking in the way they have marketed the team and venue considering such a fantastic new facilty..

Correct Mike and she is also the daughter of the erstwhile Newcastle legend Tom Owen

[Little Thumper]

Call me a Corbynite or a Sturgeonite, but if something is built with the use of public (or indeed private I suppose) funds and is given the title "national stadium" then the responsibility should be with the relevant public/government bodies to ensure it is successful and properly oversee it's operation and usage.

Apart from the actual meetings staged (and the majority of these were Belle Vue),what else justifies the place having this "national" label? Does training & practice take place on non-match days??

 

The prime responsibility of Manchester Council in this affair is to safeguard the money which they have invested in Belle Vue Arena and to ensure that they are repaid whatever they are contractually entitled to.

 

Going forward, they will surely make best effort to ensure that their next tenant has a more viable business plan and that there are third party guarantees made to ensure that any further local authority funds are not put in jeopardy.

 

It is not down to the City Council to say how speedway meetings should be run but I am a little amazed that due diligence carried out by the Council appears to be either lacking or ineffective.

[waiheke1]

But you will need to deduct 20% VAT from your 20k (all automated at BV so cannot fudge those numbers) which immediately leaves you down to 16k.

 

And 2000 paying adults was very much a rarity, most matches at best I would say circa 1400

 

Finding the rent would be nigh on impossible on the numbers...

I stopped at 15 quid as I assumed that was the net of vat average sale.

It was also based on assumption that business case may have assumed 2000 per meeting. IF it was 1400 then that's another 9k short per meeting, so looking at close to 200k over a season. And that could well be part of the issue, as surely the plan for this stadium must have been crowds of 2k plus per meeting