steve roberts Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 (edited) Rain off's have been part of the sport, but I think it is getting out of hand now. Tracks and bikes nowadays don't like anything but 'perfect' conditions. Riders can't race on the tracks when slightly wet, because the bikes are so high revving. They lose traction, just spin and lose control. It's either like an ice rink or riding on marbles...they lose all traction. This is where the sport needs to sort itself out. We need bikes that can race on tracks that are wet....not flooded...but wet. It's part and parcel of our environment. We need to be able to race on tracks that have rain on them. It, imo, is why we lose so many fans. The hardcore put up with it. But to travel like many do, and see meetings stop for some light drizzle, over time, it gets to you... and you end up not bothering to go if the weather forecast hints at any showers. You then get out of the habit, and find other interests to follow. Just been reading interviews with both the late Malcolm Simmons and Eric Boocock who both are quoting as saying that the bikes are too powerful now and much easier to handle and that riders expect the tracks to be slick as they can't handle them when the tracks are deep and, dare I suggest, with a bit of dirt! Edited August 7, 2016 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 I don't see that it has anything to do with whether the British leagues call the shots or not. Promoters should be the ones who decide what constitutes the show, how much they charge for it, and what they pay the riders. Riders are free to accept or reject the terms, but I'm sure plenty would even if you have to end-up signing more locally-based riders. Getting back to the second halves, I don't see that riders would be getting away from meetings any later than they do now. It should easily be possible to run 20 heats including an interval inside 2 hours under normal circumstances, which is pretty much how long it takes to run 15 heats nowadays. The question is how you'd incentivise riders to take second halves seriously, but I don't see that you couldn't in principle spread existing points monies over the main match and second half, and link the second halves into some sort of season-long competition. Plenty seem to say you can't do this and can't do that because riders wouldn't like it, but every year the number of paying spectators declines and something needs to be done to give the appearance of a better value show. A utopian view of things The sport is based now on the European league week,far far more than it ever was.We have lost an incredible number of riders from the days of the 70s.There really aren't enough riders to go round,which means more and more guests. As you state fans are having enough problems with the time it takes to run 15 heats.To then say they should be able to run 20 heats in the time they can hardly run 15 is not living in the real world.What we shouldn't be doing is driving out even more riders by saying you have to do 20 heats,not 15.Quite incredible to then say we replace those riders with more locally based ones!! Which ones?????There aren't many locally based riders anymore.What we certainly don't need is a system that means even more guests than we have had in recent years.Friday tracks for instance would be severely hit by your idea.We have in the past had some riders(not all) that have ridden on a friday before an important continental meeting.With even more heats i think they would be less likely to stay.That is one instance,but we would be hit by the same situation almost every race night Sorry,but you seem to be going from bad to worse on this to try and justify your first crazy idea...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 As you state fans are having enough problems with the time it takes to run 15 heats.To then say they should be able to run 20 heats in the time they can hardly run 15 is not living in the real world. What I think isn't living in the real world, is constantly not addressing the underlying reasons why speedway isn't popular anymore. It used to be perfectly possible to run 20 heats in an evening, and it's only because of progressive cutting back that the average meeting is down to 15 heats strung-out over a longer time to make it seem like better value. Of course 20 heats can still be run in a timely fashion if the will is there. Whether or not 'proper second halves' as opposed to a junior heats (either before, during or after the main match) are the answer, I don't know, but they would have some advantages if done properly. Quite incredible to then say we replace those riders with more locally based ones!! Which ones?????There aren't many locally based riders anymore. I was referring to local riders in the context of British-based riders, but perhaps they aren't any actual local riders anymore because there are limited opportunities for them to ride somewhere each week? If you continually limit the opportunities for upcoming riders, whether through overuse of guests, rider replacement, doubling-up/down whatever, then potential riders will find something else to do. Supply is usually driven by demand, but progressively reducing demand eventually becomes the thin end of the wedge. And is there really an actual shortage of riders? There might be a shortage of riders of a perceived standard, but then the sport needs to start building its teams at a more realistic level, based on rider availability, affordability and willingness to ride in extra heats if it's decreed that's part of the programme. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 I actually agree that there should be more opportunities.They have been drastically reduced around Europe by those riders who ride in 2,3 or more leagues. Anders Michanek a decade or so said in Backtrack that there were hundreds less just in Sweden than in his day.I was also quite astonished to see that the amount of junior riders in Denmark had dropped by 50% in just a few years.I hope this is a temporary blip,but it is a fact 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray c Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 Poole last Thursday all over by 9 10 we don't even get anybody having run round after the meeting these day's not good value anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 Just been reading interviews with both the late Malcolm Simmons and Eric Boocock who both are quoting as saying that the bikes are too powerful now and much easier to handle and that riders expect the tracks to be slick as they can't handle them when the tracks are deep and, dare I suggest, with a bit of dirt! Agreed, too powerful...but easier to handle? I keep reading conflicting reports re the bikes handling. Many saying the bikes are less controllable...even TW was saying this recently. Think you are correct fella, in as much as these bikes need a 'slicker' surface and don't particularly like the deeper heavier tracks. Swindon and Somerset added shale this week, both promotions mentioned that the riders took a while to adapt and get used to it, once the slicker riding line had been produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Jones Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 Whether or not 'proper second halves' as opposed to a junior heats (either before, during or after the main match) are the answer, I don't know, but they would have some advantages if done properly. 'Proper second halves' these days are MDL/NJL matches which are far more relevant in an era when there is a dearth of experienced home grown riders than Rider of the Night jollies ever we're. Unfortunately there are too many people that rush away before heat 15 is over, let alone stay to watch a 2nd half. In an ideal world I'd like to see every track with a junior league team in a league system regionalised enough to limit travel for school age riders and busy parents but with enough matches to give regular track time. Promotions should be encouraged to give priority to these matches over the local super star's engine test sessions and prospective new and re-emerging defunct teams should be restricted to 1 season of challenge matches with scratch teams before entering one of the junior leagues if they are really serious. Unfortunately such a set up would require some joined up thinking which appears to be beyond the capabilities of those in charge. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 (edited) A lot of the problems as well... are the length of time certain meetings take to run these days. Get a few re starts, then all the mechanics come running out trying to look important, top the tank up, cool the clutch, oil the chain, tickle your riders nuts and tell him how great he is...then the digging again at the tapes, play around with the clutch lever...adjust said nuts...and it soon takes up a lot of time. Lots of tracks with curfews...second halves could be a problem under today's regulations. Edited August 7, 2016 by Gresham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Eye Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 A lot of the problems as well... are the length of time certain meetings take to run these days. Get a few re starts, then all the mechanics come running out trying to look important, top the tank up, cool the carb, oil the chain, tickle your riders nuts and tell him how great he is...then the digging again at the tapes, play around with the clutch lever...adjust said nuts...and it soon takes up a lot of time. Lots of tracks with curfews...second halves could be a problem under today's regulations. Must remember to do that before the next restart....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 Need to sort out the 1st half first IMO . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted August 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 so whats wrong with the idea of having a gp style tornament for the kids 250/500cc where points add up all season cuminating in a one off final? after the main event , it would give them very much needed track time, they would only learn and get better , it would be something positive for the future so what if a percentage of the croud dont stay and watch, its there loss, it could well end up getting a quite a following.. clubs would be ablle to monitor any future stars and the kids would get to know how to ride the various tracks 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 Get the referees out there to show us how's it's done. Their reactions are so great they can judge riders reactions that we'd be sure to find the next World Champion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUFC_Brummie Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 As said previously, by all means run second halves for juniors to help their development, but the reality is most people just are not interested, especially on a weeknight. Focus on getting the "first half" right, that's the key part of the product and what will draw people to the sport. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 british speedway needs to attract fans we all know that ,buit what a lot of fans are miffed with is no second half, a lot of fans feel ripped off with just 15 heats and thats it --- go home why not have a mini gp stle tornament fr the youngsters where the points add up all season , 250 and 500 cc catergorys? so whats wrong with the idea of having a gp style tornament for the kids 250/500cc where points add up all season cuminating in a one off final? after the main event , it would give them very much needed track time, they would only learn and get better , it would be something positive for the future so what if a percentage of the croud dont stay and watch, its there loss, it could well end up getting a quite a following.. clubs would be ablle to monitor any future stars and the kids would get to know how to ride the various tracks Nothing's wrong with what you suggest for the kids but that's not what you're original post was about. You said fans feel ripped off with just 15 heats and a return to 2nd halfs would improve that. The fact is you were incorrect as over history has proven with the old 2nd halfs & the current Development Leagues, 2/3's of the crowds ain't interested. To feel you've had VFM this has to come from the main event. 2nd halfs & DL meetings do not add anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 'Proper second halves' these days are MDL/NJL matches which are far more relevant in an era when there is a dearth of experienced home grown riders than Rider of the Night jollies ever we're. Well of course juniors did ride in second halves as well, and usually got a race against more established riders. Unfortunately there are too many people that rush away before heat 15 is over, let alone stay to watch a 2nd half. I did use to stay and watch second halves, as well as junior matches in the early days. Unfortunately, the 'second halves' just became more-and-more of an after-thought, whilst the junior leagues seemed to be taken less-and-less seriously, so it's hardly surprising how crowds responded. Whatever you do for a support event, it needs to be promoted properly and linked to a wider competition to create some sort of interest. To me the main drawback of junior leagues forming a regular part of meetings is the need for riders to make a significant commitment to home and away matches, plus there's less opportunity to put out different riders just to get experience or otherwise for trial purposes. In the past that led to the development of the 'professional junior' and I think there were actually few riders who made the jump into the main teams. Equally putting on a few scratch races after meetings lacks context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 We have an MDL meeting now and again but on a Wednesday/Thursday night most fans disappear off home. Years ago when we rode on Saturday nights, the proper 2nd half was a pretty big part of the meeting, but those days have gone ..... never to come back at Lynn with stock car meetings taking precedent ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 To feel you've had VFM this has to come from the main event. 2nd halfs & DL meetings do not add anything. You could easily run an 18 heat match as happened in 1993. The longer the match though, the more likely the home team is to win, the greater likelihood of more one-sided matches, and the higher chance of no results due to weather. How also do you bring through new riders? The youth sides of Premier League clubs can go off and play on other pitches, but that's not an option in speedway where it costs money to open the stadium and where you're limited to running once a week at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 You could easily run an 18 heat match as happened in 1993. The longer the match though, the more likely the home team is to win, the greater likelihood of more one-sided matches, and the higher chance of no results due to weather. How also do you bring through new riders? The youth sides of Premier League clubs can go off and play on other pitches, but that's not an option in speedway where it costs money to open the stadium and where you're limited to running once a week at best. Nothing wrong with 15 heats just the format of those 15 heats. New riders are coming through all the time but just not a the pace required to get Britain back on top of the World stage. Only money can fix that but there just isn't enough to throw around. We already have a 250 & 500 junior series, a development league structure and of course the National League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveallan81 Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Humphrey Appleby, on 07 Aug 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:And is there really an actual shortage of riders? There might be a shortage of riders of a perceived standard, but then the sport needs to start building its teams at a more realistic level, based on rider availability, affordability and willingness to ride in extra heats if it's decreed that's part of the programme. Using the current greensheets on the SGB website there are currently 187 riders occupying 231 team places across the three leagues. From averages published recently on the BSF, there are a further 40 MDL and 32 NJL riders who are not currently in any declared 1-7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Jones Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 When I last checked at the beginning of July, there were 402 riders registered with the SCB, 257 Professional, 66 Youth & 81 Amateur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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