Speedway's Twisted Mentality...

[Gresham]

Everyone knows what the problem is. Adam Sheilds used to say it cast him 6 grand to get to,the start line to race against 3 blokes who had also spent 6 grand getting there and wouldn't make more sense if everyone had only spent 2grand getting there. Seeing the problem is the easy part. Finding a workable solution is the hard part. My point is that you can't just say lets have sealed engines as if that solves the problem without addressing all the difficulties that go with it. Whichever way you turn there are difficulties that have to be addressed.

 

FWIW I think the glimmer of hope on the horizon is the Gerhard engine but that still has a way to go yet. One of the problems is the riders themselves. They want to reduce costs but don't want to sacrifice anything that gives them a competitive edge over the next man.

Of course there will be difficulties to be addressed...hard ones, but lets at least try to address them. No point me or anyone on here trying to find a solution as there are far better qualitied people in the sport that can do it.

 

I totally agree what you say about the riders wanting to find a competitive edge...perhaps they need re educating. 'Let your skill on the bike do the talking, not the skill in the tuners garage' should be the motto.

 

The Gerhard may reduce costs slightly, but they are meant to cost a lot more in the outset.

 

I really don't understand why it is that hard not to do a deal with someone like JAWA, who could sponsor the leagues with engines at a reduced cost, and supply engines as standard and sealed, and allow Clubs through the bspa to pay in instalments. Riders would be paid less than they are now, but they wouldn't have the costs of tuning and servicing the bikes. The money saved in wages could be put toward the upkeep of the engines and replacements when necessary.

 

No engine would be the same, but tolerances between each engine that is standard, are within reason. Lots can be drawn for engines supervised of course. It seems a fair system to me. Plus you are taking away the power from the riders who imo, have too much say in the sport as it stands.

[sparkafag]

As good a meeting as you're likely to see, some spend it moaning about wet tracks...

 

Yip definatley all about improving things..

Edited July 30, 2016 by The Mockingjay

[FAST GATER]

we spent 5yrs sponsoring riders and one in particular in the 70's ,the main reason we stopped was the arrival of 4 valves in the last 2yrs we spent twice as much per year than the first 3yrs .All we got was unreliable engines and bigger servicing bills the racing as a spectacle IMO was overall no different as the best riders had the best engines .It is my belief just like football agents speedway has tuners in both cases they are an unnecessary and expensive parasites of their respective sport.

Edited July 31, 2016 by FAST GATER

[E I Addio]

we spent 5yrs sponsoring riders and one in particular in the 70's ,the main reason we stopped was the arrival of 4 valves in the last 2yrs we spent twice as much per year than the first 3yrs .All we got was unreliable engines and bigger servicing bills the racing as a spectacle IMO was overall no different as the best riders had the best engines .It is my belief just like football agents speedway has tuners in both cases they an unnecessary and expensive parasites of their respective sport.

 

The argument for two valve engines has some merit , both on the grounds of cost and controllability of the bikes. Technology and tuning has come a long way since two valves were last used and it might be something that bears further investigation. The problem is whether a manufacturer would be prepared to spend time and money developing a two valve engine. It would be a more practical and workable approach than sealed engines though.

 

The big problem with any change is that it is hardly worth financially from the manufacturers point if view just for the limited British market. You would have to get Poland on board in favour of any changes and I am not sure what their attitude would be.

[Gresham]

The argument for two valve engines has some merit , both on the grounds of cost and controllability of the bikes. Technology and tuning has come a long way since two valves were last used and it might be something that bears further investigation. The problem is whether a manufacturer would be prepared to spend time and money developing a two valve engine. It would be a more practical and workable approach than sealed engines though.

 

The big problem with any change is that it is hardly worth financially from the manufacturers point if view just for the limited British market. You would have to get Poland on board in favour of any changes and I am not sure what their attitude would be.

With respect...I think you are missing the point completely. British speedway is dying. When the Chairman of the BSPA and other Promotors are now saying things like 'there will be no more speedway soon'...then you have to do something drastic to make it work.

 

Why would developing a two valve engine be more practical or cost effective, over sealing a standard engine that's already being manufactured?

 

Why not approach a company like JAWA who are behind GM? I'm sure they would love to get on board and provide engines to a British League.

 

Isn't it time, we took the bull by the horns and stop worrying about Poland and top foreign riders?

 

Surely it's time to say, enough is enough.

 

Be drastic...be different. Change for the better. Sod Poland and Sweden. They will eventually end up the way of the UK...so many riders not being paid contracts they are being promised. So many riders not getting rides they were promised.

 

Almagamate the Prem and Elite leagues. Get enough fixture for the riders to make a living. Make it so they don't have to ride abroad as well. Make fixtures on a weekend or Friday. If riders have to have a second job during the week...so be it. It happens with National League riders still.

 

People will say...'but what about all the top riders?'....there won't be any top riders soon...as the Sport cannot continue in the same vein...there just isn't the money, sponsorship, or following for it to survive...the economics do not add up...it's glaringly obvious for many to see, apart from the dreamers who think Speedway is ok as it is now. At least Promotors are starting to make the right noises.

[ch958]

I recall some years ago that there was an initiative to experiment with Honda engines with a view of cutting costs but the BSPA didn't show any enthusiasm towards it. Eric Boocock was involved with the trials as it was hoped that, if successful, costs potentially would have been reduced.

 

Problem is that riders, given a free reign, will always look at ways of out doing each other for that extra horsepower. John Berry always maintained that the introduction of four valves in the middle seventies was the beginning of the end as regards keeping costs down...and has been unfortunately proved correct.

 

i said this to Brian Havelock on a Radio Tees phone in years ago and he said i was talking rubbish so there we are

[FAST GATER]

ts

 

i said this to Brian Havelock on a Radio Tees phone in years ago and he said i was talking rubbish so there we are

My previous post proves Mr Berry correct and Havelock wrong as we left the sport from a sponsorship point of view because of the costs and that was in the late 70's!!

[E I Addio]

With respect...I think you are missing the point completely. British speedway is dying.

Why not approach a company like JAWA who are behind GM? I'm sure they would love to get on board and provide engines to a British League.

 

Isn't it time, we took the bull by the horns and stop worrying about Poland and top foreign riders?

 

Surely it's time to say, enough is enough.

 

Be drastic...be different. Change for the better. Sod Poland and Sweden.

People will say...'but what about all the top riders?'....there won't be any top riders soon...as the Sport cannot continue in the same vein...there just isn't the money, sponsorship, or following for it to survive...the economics do not add up...it's glaringly obvious for many to see, apart from the dreamers who think Speedway is ok as it is now. At least Promotors are starting to make the right noises.

 

 

I am not missing the point.

 

There are plenty of suggestions to save speedway , many of them ok in theory but they almost all fall down when you come to consider cost. Its all very well to be gung ho and say sod Poland, sod Sweden do away with top riders, one big league and all the rest of it then leave someone else to work out the details. You assume Jawa would be interested, but hardly anyone wants to ride Jawas these days and there is a very good reason why they don't.

 

The sport is facing a multitude of problems and you wont solve them by plucking an idea out of the air and saying Oh lets have sealed engines that will do the trick. Anybody can come up with a broad brush idea without working out the costs and its workability, but its the cost and the practical details that are important and its those details which you shut your mind to.

 

As I said before, I am fully aware of the problems, as are most people, but working out a coherent and viable solution is the hard part. Unfortunately anyone who points that out gets accused of living in a dream world.

 

Last nights SWC meeting at Belle Vue was by all accounts an excellent meeting according to those that were there. It would not be the same draw without Team GB and you wont have Team GB by saying sod Poland and Sweden we'll go it alone. Top riders and a GB team are integral to any formula for the future of the sport.

 

Carry on with your theories but lets have some flesh on the bones, rather than pipe dreams.

Edited July 31, 2016 by E I Addio

[Gresham]

 

 

I am not missing the point.

 

There are plenty of suggestions to save speedway , many of them ok in theory but they almost all fall down when you come to consider cost. Its all very well to be gung ho and say sod Poland, sod Sweden do away with top riders, one big league and all the rest of it then leave someone else to work out the details. You assume Jawa would be interested, but hardly anyone wants to ride Jawas these days and there is a very good reason why they don't.

 

The sport is facing a multitude of problems and you wont solve them by plucking an idea out of the air and saying Oh lets have sealed engines that will do the trick. Anybody can come up with a broad brush idea without working out the costs and its workability, but its the cost and the practical details that are important and its those details which you shut your mind to.

 

As I said before, I am fully aware of the problems, as are most people, but working out a coherent and viable solution is the hard part. Unfortunately anyone who points that out gets accused of living in a dream world.

 

Last nights SWC meeting at Belle Vue was by all accounts an excellent meeting according to those that were there. It would not be the same draw without Team GB and you wont have Team GB by saying sod Poland and Sweden we'll go it alone. Top riders and a GB team are integral to any formula for the future of the sport.

 

Carry on with your theories but lets have some flesh on the bones, rather than pipe dreams.

It's impossible to debate with you because you keep coming out with the same rhetoric.

 

You say people don't want to ride Jawa...I gave Jawa as an example, because GM need a tuner to build the engines, they come in parts. You can buy JAWA assembled at factory.

 

I've asked you two questions which you haven't answered...yet you want me to put flesh on the bones.

 

As I've said...I've not got the answers. I've got the ideas...the people in the sport who run it, would have a better idea of how to implement the ideas.

 

You mention team GB...we won't have a team GB if we carry on at the present rate. Why do you think the speedway media is full of Promotors making quotes about the state of tracks and the compatibility of the engines with them? For fun? They see it's not working.

 

So you bring in another engine...what happens next...the riders start to fiddle with them and find more speed....and so the spiral starts again.

 

I accuse you of living in a dream world...because you say you see the problems, yet you are not willing to find ways of making changes work. Instead you just find ways of it not working.

 

Perhaps you can give some insight as to how speedway can survive for the future, instead of being so negative.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

The answer is the 2 valve 570cc engine that jawa produce , with strict control on parts and what can be done to them this is the sensible way forward for cost and safety , I posted this over a year ago on another topic , in return for the engine's exclusive use jawa sponsor all 3 leagues , I have told various party's including buster , someone someday will listen to me but in the meantime we can bury our head in the sand, to the people who say what about all the GM engines currently in use ? Well what happened to the japs when jawa 2v came along , what happened to all the 2 valve when weslake came along , what happened to all the weslakes when GM came along etc

Edited July 31, 2016 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Vince]

Personally I think if you are going to further control engines then it has to start with the rev limiter.

 

Further on you could introduce a minimum stroke which would be easily policed. I'd like to see a minimum flywheel weight alongside that but not sure how you would police that.

 

Certainly you would have an easier to ride bike that should be less susceptible to track conditions and changes. However it would mean a big outlay for riders at a time the majority are struggling to afford their racing anyway.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Personally I think if you are going to further control engines then it has to start with the rev limiter.

a limiter of any sufficient measure say 10,000 revs would make the current bike even more unpredictable than it is now , the tuners would have to find more low down power and that's just more money for them , any answer is going to be a short term finacial pain but after a year a new slower less Reving engine that is less half the price of a current GM and has the fancy tuning parts banned is going to be a benifit to riders pockets . Whatever the answer is the sport has got to take its destiny out of the tuners hands , Peter johns current hold over the sport at the moment doing nothing for speedway , good for him but where is the good for the sport ? At the top of the sport now we are getting to the stage where you have to use Peter johns to win , isn't that like F1 where good drivers can't win cause they don't have the best car , do we really want that ? Edited July 31, 2016 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Gresham]

a limiter of any sufficient measure say 10,000 revs would make the current bike even more unpredictable than it is now , the tuners would have to find more low down power and that's just more money for them , any answer is going to be a short term finacial pain but after a year a new slower less Reving engine that is less half the price of a current GM and has the fancy tuning parts banned is going to be a benifit to riders pockets . Whatever the answer is the sport has got to take its destiny out of the tuners hands , Peter johns current hold over the sport at the moment doing nothing for speedway , good for him but where is the good for the sport ? At the top of the sport now we are getting to the stage where you have to use Peter johns to win , isn't that like F1 where good drivers can't win cause they don't have the best car , do we really want that ?

I think we are already at that point...Woffinden recently came out and said at the top level, the riders ability is pretty much the same, it's just who's got the set up right on the night that wins.

 

You make some very valid points which I agree on.

[FAST GATER]

Riders can always find the money to go quicker now they need to realise they need to invest in their futures and accept they may have to write off some of the cost of current machinery .

[The White Knight]

The answer is the 2 valve 570cc engine that jawa produce , with strict control on parts and what can be done to them this is the sensible way forward for cost and safety , I posted this over a year ago on another topic , in return for the engine's exclusive use jawa sponsor all 3 leagues , I have told various party's including buster , someone someday will listen to me but in the meantime we can bury our head in the sand, to the people who say what about all the GM engines currently in use ? Well what happened to the japs when jawa 2v came along , what happened to all the 2 valve when weslake came along , what happened to all the weslakes when GM came along etc

First rate Post with which I 100% agree.

 

I have been going on for ages regarding 1920/30s Tracks and 2016 Rocket ships (Bikes) expected to Race on them. Little wonder, to me, that there are so many injuries these days.

 

The Sport needs to take a long hard look at itself.

Edited July 31, 2016 by The White Knight

[E I Addio]

It's impossible to debate with you because you keep coming out with the same rhetoric.

 

You say people don't want to ride Jawa...I gave Jawa as an example, because GM need a tuner to build the engines, they come in parts. You can buy JAWA assembled at factory.

 

I've asked you two questions which you haven't answered...yet you want me to put flesh on the bones.

 

As I've said...I've not got the answers. I've got the ideas...the people in the sport who run it, would have a better idea of how to implement the ideas.

 

You mention team GB...we won't have a team GB if we carry on at the present rate. Why do you think the speedway media is full of Promotors making quotes about the state of tracks and the compatibility of the engines with them? For fun? They see it's not working.

 

So you bring in another engine...what happens next...the riders start to fiddle with them and find more speed....and so the spiral starts again.

 

I accuse you of living in a dream world...because you say you see the problems, yet you are not willing to find ways of making changes work. Instead you just find ways of it not working.

 

Perhaps you can give some insight as to how speedway can survive for the future, instead of being so negative.

I am not being negative I am just saying there is no point in pursuing harebrained schemes that are not properly thought through. I have said the issue of two valve engines is worth further investigation.

 

Two valve engines are a common theme with riders who have applied there minds to it The Dean Machine has just mentioned it in the post above , Graham Hurry mentioned it in Speedwáy Star a year or two back , and Olle Nygren said something very similar to me a few months ago, not just in connection with cost but also rider safety. I have yet to see anything from a rider or mechanic advocating sealed engines as the way forward.

 

It is you that keeps coming back with the same old rhetoric. This is a discussion forum. That means that if you put forward an idea or proposal, others are entitled to question it and ask for more details, but all we get from you is that it's your idea but it's up to someone else to work out the details. It's rather like me saying the way forward is to increase the crowds, but someone else will have to work out how to do it.

[FAST GATER]

Sadly I think that the riders need to accept change and they are often reluctant to do so unless it involves greater speed which is the last thing the sport needs .

[steve roberts]

I remember I had a conversation with Peter Collins at Oxford when his son, Chris, was riding. PC even then was concerned about the speed and handling of the bikes compared to how little tracks had altered over the same period.

[Gresham]

I am not being negative I am just saying there is no point in pursuing harebrained schemes that are not properly thought through. I have said the issue of two valve engines is worth further investigation.

 

Two valve engines are a common theme with riders who have applied there minds to it The Dean Machine has just mentioned it in the post above , Graham Hurry mentioned it in Speedwáy Star a year or two back , and Olle Nygren said something very similar to me a few months ago, not just in connection with cost but also rider safety. I have yet to see anything from a rider or mechanic advocating sealed engines as the way forward.

 

It is you that keeps coming back with the same old rhetoric. This is a discussion forum. That means that if you put forward an idea or proposal, others are entitled to question it and ask for more details, but all we get from you is that it's your idea but it's up to someone else to work out the details. It's rather like me saying the way forward is to increase the crowds, but someone else will have to work out how to do it.

When you call it 'pipe dreams' and harebrain' ideas, then what else do you expect.

 

I don't work in Speedway closely enough to give answers to everything.

 

Nothing wrong with putting ideas forward.

 

Like I said...of course it will cause upheaval and cost to start with...but something has to be done. It wasn't long ago that a promotor was discussing sealed engines in the SS. Can't remember who it was though.

 

I'm really not bothered about what Riders, Mechanics or tuners think....they are stuck in their ways and resistant to change.

 

The Power needs to come back to the Clubs....for the long term good of the sport.

 

If it means losing some riders...so be it. But I'm pretty damn sure there will be riders who would welcome lower costs and no tuning costs like there are now.

 

If it got to a point where Clubs owned the engines, and supplied them to the riders at meetings, and riders were paid to ride for the club at a reduced wage, but with no running costs incurred for them, apart from rolling chassis, then I can see a better future.

 

How we get to that point, would take many changes...lots of questions and answers, which there is no point me giving an answer to, because I don't work in the sport.

 

It's pretty much the same for anyone commenting on this forum about speedway, and who has never ridden...most of us haven't got a clue to how it is for a rider or promotor...we can guess, and speak to them in conversation...but until you walk in that mans shoes, you can't really give a proper view point.

 

Non the less...we can still engage in debate, even if it may seem easier said than done.

[waiheke1]

I struggle to see how anyone can seriously suggest "putting the power in the hands of the clubs" when you look at the utterly shambolic decisions the bspa cone up with each agm...