Speedway's Twisted Mentality...

[Cj69]

Excuse my ignorance (know very litle about bikes).

Are there different types of tyres that could be used for different weather conditions?

[Gresham]

Technology has indeed moved on...producing ever more powerful engines, producing ridiculous amounts of Revs, on the limit of breaking point, engines that need to be serviced after very few laps...of course PJR are going to say that, it's in his interest.

 

I'd point you in the direction of his website, and what he recommends for looking after an engine, it's ridiculous when you read it...but it seems he's let his domain name expire, so his site is down.

 

As for tyres being less grippy, that is the most stupid thing I've ever read from an engine tuner. Riders are constantly manoeuvreing their body shape on the bike, fighting to find more traction, as like Tai Woffinden said recently, it's like driving a car on marbles.

 

Engines need to be less powerful and have more restriction on them, as they have now outgrown most speedway tracks and surfaces.

[AndyJ]

Technology has indeed moved on...producing ever more powerful engines, producing ridiculous amounts of Revs, on the limit of breaking point, engines that need to be serviced after very few laps...of course PJR are going to say that, it's in his interest.

 

I'd point you in the direction of his website, and what he recommends for looking after an engine, it's ridiculous when you read it...but it seems he's let his domain name expire, so his site is down.

If you can remember the website URL, perhaps the https://archive.org/web/ archiving caught this, enabling the site content to still be read...?

 

Edit: found it myself...

In fact https://web.archive.org/web/20150119020933*/http://www.peterjohnsracing.com/ shows 4 snapshots of the website.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Tkdandy

[FAST GATER]

Technology has indeed moved on...producing ever more powerful engines, producing ridiculous amounts of Revs, on the limit of breaking point, engines that need to be serviced after very few laps...of course PJR are going to say that, it's in his interest.

 

I'd point you in the direction of his website, and what he recommends for looking after an engine, it's ridiculous when you read it...but it seems he's let his domain name expire, so his site is down.

 

As for tyres being less grippy, that is the most stupid thing I've ever read from an engine tuner. Riders are constantly manoeuvreing their body shape on the bike, fighting to find more traction, as like Tai Woffinden said recently, it's like driving a car on marbles.

 

Engines need to be less powerful and have more restriction on them, as they have now outgrown most speedway tracks and surfaces.

Let the rider skill be the difference not what is done in the workshop

[Alan_Jones]

Excuse my ignorance (know very litle about bikes).

Are there different types of tyres that could be used for different weather conditions?

There's currently one standard tyre but there was a move to introduce a 'wet' tyre and some testing was done but no conclusion reached.

[steve roberts]

There's currently one standard tyre but there was a move to introduce a 'wet' tyre and some testing was done but no conclusion reached.

Tyres have been a constant source of debate going back decades. Pirelli, Barum or Carlisle to name a few. It's been argued that some are too narrow/wide, soft/hard, deep/shallow treads etc etc.

[daveallan81]

The White Knight, on 29 Jul 2016 - 3:29 PM, said:

Like the Avatar Dave.

 

Who is it?

 

It's early/draft artwork from a forthcoming children's book series. I can't say any more than that, except I'm neither the author nor the artist.

[The White Knight]

 

It's early/draft artwork from a forthcoming children's book series. I can't say any more than that, except I'm neither the author nor the artist.

Thank you Dave.

[E I Addio]

Technology has indeed moved on...producing ever more powerful engines, producing ridiculous amounts of Revs, on the limit of breaking point, engines that need to be serviced after very few laps...of course PJR are going to say that, it's in his interest.

 

I'd point you in the direction of his website, and what he recommends for looking after an engine, it's ridiculous when you read it...but it seems he's let his domain name expire, so his site is down.

 

As for tyres being less grippy, that is the most stupid thing I've ever read from an engine tuner. Riders are constantly manoeuvreing their body shape on the bike, fighting to find more traction, as like Tai Woffinden said recently, it's like driving a car on marbles.

 

Engines need to be less powerful and have more restriction on them, as they have now outgrown most speedway tracks and surfaces.

As always, you dismiss out of hand any comment that doesn't suit your agenda. Peter Johns has put forward an idea but you don't think it's worth even a second thought. Why ask for thoughts in OP if you don't really want any that don't back your own idea ?

 

As for saying engines need to be less powerful and have more restriction on them, that is an easy thing to say but much more difficult to apply in practice and even more difficult to police unless engines are going to be stripped and examined after every meeting. Unless you can put forward a clear and coherent technical argument as to how you make engines less powerful without scope for cheating and without affecting the quality of the racing your argument can be dismissed as readily as you dismiss Peter Johns suggestion.

[SteveLyric2]

So we have a Poole Promotor that wants to bring in approx. 25 home meetings in per season. One home meeting a week. How many of them are going to get rained off at first attempt or even second attempt? How is it possible to run a bigger fixture list in a season, with the bikes we have, with the weather conditions common to Britain?

 

What percentage of rain off's have we had this season?

 

Imo, it's the amount of rain offs we have, and the irregularity of speedway meetings being on, that is the problem...as people get fed up of travelling miles only to be told it's off.

 

I personally enjoyed seeing riders battle the elements as well as one another.

 

Perhaps that's why County Cricket, Lawn Tennis and Speedway suffer falling attendances...because they can't deal with the normal conditions of the Country we live in.

Do Cricket and Tennis have quicker balls than 30 years ago??

[Daniel Smith]

Do Cricket and Tennis have quicker balls than 30 years ago??

 

Yep

[Trees]

Tennis has larger rackets and made if better material, I reckon they should go back to small wooden rackets to stop the fast aces.

[Gresham]

As always, you dismiss out of hand any comment that doesn't suit your agenda. Peter Johns has put forward an idea but you don't think it's worth even a second thought. Why ask for thoughts in OP if you don't really want any that don't back your own idea ?

 

As for saying engines need to be less powerful and have more restriction on them, that is an easy thing to say but much more difficult to apply in practice and even more difficult to police unless engines are going to be stripped and examined after every meeting. Unless you can put forward a clear and coherent technical argument as to how you make engines less powerful without scope for cheating and without affecting the quality of the racing your argument can be dismissed as readily as you dismiss Peter Johns suggestion.

Agenda...what Agenda? I don't dismiss his comments, I purely don't think it will make any difference as different tyre compounds and manufacturers have been tried many times over the years....as others have also noted in this thread.

 

When Rosco is talking negatively about the engines as well as Chapman this week, where he quotes..' No wonder crowds are going away, The bikes can't handle this type of grip. They can't run at the lower power. I don't want to say any more because i'll get into trouble...the riders won't have a job soon' ...you stand up and take notice.

 

As for restricting bikes power...it's not rocket science. You seal the engines and run on standardised equipment with a + or - % tolerance.

 

You get someone like JAWA to produce them for the Leagues. Sealed engines, lots drawn for engines at meetings, and then fitted into riders own rolling chassis.

 

Yes it would mean a massive change. Yes...riders wouldn't have a set up personalised exactly as it is now in engine preference.

 

But they would have to change and deal with it, for the future of the Sport.

 

What Sport runs engines that are too powerful for the surface they race on? Which is what has happened now. When does it stop? So you let it continue, getting faster and faster with less control and unpredictability? You let the costs spiral...the racing becomes a farce as the bikes can't race on anything less than perfect for those engines. It's a spiral out of control, which you seem quiet happy to let develop and not find a reason to say 'No...Stop'.

 

 

Why would it effect racing, being a couple seconds slower if need be?

 

If Speedway can reduce running costs, then they should.

 

Promotors are starting to speak up now, as they realise it's gone to far and needs to stop.

 

Why Chapman thinks he will get into trouble for speaking his mind is a worry though. What's stopping him.

 

Too many fingers in too many pies imo.

[Shale Searcher]

It will get to the point that team speedway will be a thing of the past. The bikes will be so finely tuned that most meetings, on most tracks will get postponed because they won't be safe to ride the rocket ships on... After stock cars "Off" to grippy, after any rain "off" to slippy or grippy, in late August and September "off" dew makes it to slippy, in March, April, May "off" due to rain, and dew, to slippy or grippy, so this leaves June and July, when the UK is on holiday, and the UK is prone to thunderstorms.......

When will they race?

[no-brakes-uk]

Tennis has larger rackets and made if better material, I reckon they should go back to small wooden rackets to stop the fast aces.

The upright rackets were so much safer than the laydown rackets and it was all about ball control instead of these flat out racket ships which are too fast for the size of the courts.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

I've brought a rotax jap speedway bike today , just wondering if I would be good enough for NL ? 👍🏻

[E I Addio]

Agenda...what Agenda? I don't dismiss his comments, I purely don't think it will make any difference as different tyre compounds and manufacturers have been tried many times over the years....as others have also noted in this thread.

 

As for restricting bikes power...it's not rocket science. You seal the engines and run on standardised equipment with a + or - % tolerance.

 

You get someone like JAWA to produce them for the Leagues. Sealed engines, lots drawn for engines at meetings, and then fitted into riders own rolling chassiso.

With regard to tyres, if you read my post properly, which you clearly haven't, I acknowledged it had been tried in the past but then added technology has moved on so it is worth another look, although I also added that it depends on tyre manufacturers getting it right.

 

Sealed engines were looked at several years ago by Jon Cook, amongst others but nothing came of it. There are too many flaws in the idea unless you can overcome the technical difficulties.

 

The first problem is that you mention Jawa. Nobody rides Jawas these days except Lewis Bridger and that is only because he has a sponsorship deal with the importers. They are at Lakeside every meeting with Lewis but there is still a lot development work going on.

That leaves you with GM's which basically come in bits rather than a complete engine so the first thing you have to do is get someone to assemble it to race standard, so there will be discrepancies in performance. Even then you have to look at different tracks. An engine suitable for a tight twisty track like Lakeside will be no good for Swindonand vice versa. Then there is different riding styles. A rider Like Kim Nilsson for example is very good on the inside line but needs an engine that will accelerate rapidly down the straight where he gets his points, but he needs a totally different engine to someone like Ed Kennett or Danny King who tend to score their points from sweeps round the outside. If you inhibit those riding styles and lines you take some of the spectacle away.

 

Then there is the question of who buys these engines, when should they be serviced or replaced. What happens if a rider has an e.f while leading that costs him £300 points money and it's not his engine and not his fault ?

 

All these questions and more have to be answered and the financial implications addressed before the idea even gets off the ground.

Tai Woffinden has his views on modern engines but if you told him, Sorry mate you can't have your own engine but we're are giving you this one that gets you to the first bend 6 inches behind Greg Hancock " his response would be unprintable than anything he said at Cardiff.

[Gresham]

With regard to tyres, if you read my post properly, which you clearly haven't, I acknowledged it had been tried in the past but then added technology has moved on so it is worth another look, although I also added that it depends on tyre manufacturers getting it right.

 

Sealed engines were looked at several years ago by Jon Cook, amongst others but nothing came of it. There are too many flaws in the idea unless you can overcome the technical difficulties.

 

The first problem is that you mention Jawa. Nobody rides Jawas these days except Lewis Bridger and that is only because he has a sponsorship deal with the importers. They are at Lakeside every meeting with Lewis but there is still a lot development work going on.

That leaves you with GM's which basically come in bits rather than a complete engine so the first thing you have to do is get someone to assemble it to race standard, so there will be discrepancies in performance. Even then you have to look at different tracks. An engine suitable for a tight twisty track like Lakeside will be no good for Swindonand vice versa. Then there is different riding styles. A rider Like Kim Nilsson for example is very good on the inside line but needs an engine that will accelerate rapidly down the straight where he gets his points, but he needs a totally different engine to someone like Ed Kennett or Danny King who tend to score their points from sweeps round the outside. If you inhibit those riding styles and lines you take some of the spectacle away.

 

Then there is the question of who buys these engines, when should they be serviced or replaced. What happens if a rider has an e.f while leading that costs him £300 points money and it's not his engine and not his fault ?

 

All these questions and more have to be answered and the financial implications addressed before the idea even gets off the ground.

Tai Woffinden has his views on modern engines but if you told him, Sorry mate you can't have your own engine but we're are giving you this one that gets you to the first bend 6 inches behind Greg Hancock " his response would be unprintable than anything he said at Cardiff.

Mate...i'm not being funny...but Speedway has run successfully for years, and run engines on all different shape tracks.

 

It's only in recent years that it's advanced to individual tastes to such a degree. Just because riders don't ride Jawa's now, it doesn't mean they couldn't in the future.

 

We've let speedway develop to how it is now, and the people who run the sport at the top are now questioning it.

 

You can throw a thousand and one reasons as to why it wouldn't work...we can all find excuses for no change.

 

Change has to be found...for the future of the sport. If you can't see that, then I really don't see why not, especially as the people who run it, are now crying out.

 

All the questions you ask are hypothetical based on how Speedway is run now, and the mentality it has now.

 

That all has to change...it may mean riders having their noses put out of joint...but tough. No rider is bigger than the sport.

 

I was speaking to a riders sponsor today, and he told me he was thinking of walking away from speedway as costs are just not justified. He said he's spoken to other sponsors and they feel the same way.

 

Unfortunately, Speedway will die if it continues in the same vein, and there will be people like yourself who will say...'we couldn't or wouldn't change because it couldn't be done'....all whilst sitting on your comfy sofa reminiscing about the good ol days....no offence, but it does my head in when people are so resistant to change and constantly putting out so called reasons why anything couldn't work.

[E I Addio]

Everyone knows what the problem is. Adam Sheilds used to say it cast him 6 grand to get to,the start line to race against 3 blokes who had also spent 6 grand getting there and wouldn't make more sense if everyone had only spent 2grand getting there. Seeing the problem is the easy part. Finding a workable solution is the hard part. My point is that you can't just say lets have sealed engines as if that solves the problem without addressing all the difficulties that go with it. Whichever way you turn there are difficulties that have to be addressed.

 

FWIW I think the glimmer of hope on the horizon is the Gerhard engine but that still has a way to go yet. One of the problems is the riders themselves. They want to reduce costs but don't want to sacrifice anything that gives them a competitive edge over the next man.

[steve roberts]

I recall some years ago that there was an initiative to experiment with Honda engines with a view of cutting costs but the BSPA didn't show any enthusiasm towards it. Eric Boocock was involved with the trials as it was hoped that, if successful, costs potentially would have been reduced.

 

Problem is that riders, given a free reign, will always look at ways of out doing each other for that extra horsepower. John Berry always maintained that the introduction of four valves in the middle seventies was the beginning of the end as regards keeping costs down...and has been unfortunately proved correct.

Edited July 30, 2016 by steve roberts