Good Letter In The Star...

[steve roberts]

With all due respect the MDL offers nothing to riders like an old fashioned 2nd half did.

Believe me I'm not knocking the MDL but in a comparison to the good old days it's a no brainer why us old fuddyduddies like the old 2nd halves.

Yes at Oxford saw the likes of Julian Wigg, Ken Matthews, Kevin Hawkins, Paul Tapp, Chris Drewett (as well as the often aforementioned riders) develop in the second half before competing at senior level with differing successes.

 

Julian's brother, Simon, used to ride second halves at Reading (whilst a Grass Track rider) before moving on to Weymouth and eventually becoming an England International at Speedway.

 

I was forgetting Pip Lamb. Another Grass Tracker who started riding in second halves at Cowley and eventually developed into a very useful and promising rider before so cruelly paralysed, ironically, in a second half race.

 

I could go on...and probably will!!

Edited July 24, 2016 by steve roberts

[robert72]

Apart from at all the tracks that hold second halves such as the MDL.

I feel for the kids, the crowds are all but left and the senior riders are all gone unlike back when they had the BJL and NJL there were senior riders to help and further back junior riders raced against senior riders to gain experience.

 

British Speedway is much weaker now

[steve roberts]

Of course the 'enemy' from across the border ('The Budgies' from Swindon) also had some successful riders who graduated thru' the second half. The likes of Malcolm Holloway, Martin Hewlett (who died tragically), Kevin & David Smart and the lad who rode at Exeter and Somerset, amongst others, who I can't unfortunately remember the name?

 

I'm sure that other posters who followed speedway during that era will be able to give their own team's example of riders who commenced their careers at second half level before being loaned out to advance their careers?

Edited July 25, 2016 by steve roberts

[sparkafag]

I'm sure that other posters who followed speedway during that era will be able to give their own team's example of riders who commenced their careers at second half level before being loaned out to advance their careers?

 

Is that really unique to days gone by? Is that not the story of just about any rider who has ever raced in this country? The instances when a rider hasn't been loaned out are the ones where riders have progressed their career with their own club.

Edited July 25, 2016 by The Mockingjay

[robert72]

Of course the 'enemy' from across the border ('The Budgies' from Swindon) also had some successful riders who graduated thru' the second half. The likes of Malcolm Holloway, Martin Hewlett (who died tragically), Kevin & David Smart and the lad who rode at Exeter and Somerset, amongst others, who I can't unfortunately remember the name?

 

I'm sure that other posters who followed speedway during that era will be able to give their own team's example of riders who commenced their careers at second half level before being loaned out to advance their careers?

Was it steve bishop ?

[steve roberts]

Was it steve bishop ?

Yes that's him...funny how the memory plays tricks!

[robert72]

Yes that's him...funny how the memory plays tricks!

What do I know about speedway lol

[BWitcher]

Oxford's sister teams (Eastbourne and Peterboroughs) had many riders who were able to step into the void created by missing riders due to injury and/or progression into the upper League. In fact Eastbourne had riders competing in the second halves who would have quite easily fitted into other teams due to their very successful youth policy.

 

In fact Pete Jarman stepped down during his stint with 'The Eagles' to give some of the promising juniors a chance.

 

Eric Dugard couldn't get into the team despite carrying a useful average and was loaned out to Peterborough. Peter Tarrent , Ian Gledhill and Martin Yeates were further examples who couldn't be guaranteed a team place despite holding down good averages.

 

Eastbourne, despite continually losing their star riders were able to replace them successfully season on season.

 

Thanks for proving my point!

 

Dear me...

 

The fact that any tom, dick or harry could just step into sides and perform shows the standard they were stepping into was not that great.

 

Many riders have stated they were in teams within weeks of them first ever riding a bike. Chances of that happening now? Absolute zero.

Edited July 25, 2016 by BWitcher

[Star Lady]

Thanks for proving my point!

 

Dear me...

 

The fact that any tom, dick or harry could just step into sides and perform shows the standard they were stepping into was not that great.

 

Many riders have stated they were in teams within weeks of them first ever riding a bike. Chances of that happening now? Absolute zero.

 

But surely much of that is down to the far higher standard of equipment used by league riders nowadays.

Back in the day equipment was much more standard, maintainence done by the rider not tuners etc, therefore talented kids could step up more easily. To get into a league team now with little financial backing on standard equipment, i.e. Not specially tuned is far more difficult.

[Long Eye]

But surely much of that is down to the far higher standard of equipment used by league riders nowadays.

Back in the day equipment was much more standard, maintainence done by the rider not tuners etc, therefore talented kids could step up more easily. To get into a league team now with little financial backing on standard equipment, i.e. Not specially tuned is far more difficult.

Don't matter what bike a rider has got if the ability isn't there or been developed. There's lots of kids in the MDL with good bikes but they haven't learnt how to make the most of them yet. Some will, some wont. Where do you think all the second hand engines go that the EL & PL riders sell?

[BWitcher]

But surely much of that is down to the far higher standard of equipment used by league riders nowadays.

Back in the day equipment was much more standard, maintainence done by the rider not tuners etc, therefore talented kids could step up more easily. To get into a league team now with little financial backing on standard equipment, i.e. Not specially tuned is far more difficult.

 

Not at all.

 

Take someone off the street, give them the very best bikes there are.. do you think in a matter of weeks they'd be good enough to ride in a team? It would be unthinkable..

 

Yet back when the standard was supposedly higher... it happened quite often.

[steve roberts]

 

Thanks for proving my point!

 

Dear me...

 

The fact that any tom, dick or harry could just step into sides and perform shows the standard they were stepping into was not that great.

 

Many riders have stated they were in teams within weeks of them first ever riding a bike. Chances of that happening now? Absolute zero.

Not so in the example that I have given re:Eastbourne. These were riders who were proven but unable to be guaranteed a place in a very competitive 'Eagles' side and had to be farmed out to other teams.

 

Having followed the sport extensively for 32 years during the 70s, 80s, 90s & 00s at both levels (Division One and Two/New National and National Leagues) I'm not honestly aware of a rider who having learnt to ride a speedway bike within weeks being included and holding down a team place? Can you give an example just to clarify?

Edited July 25, 2016 by steve roberts

[BWitcher]

Not so in the example that I have given re:Eastbourne. These were riders who were proven but unable to be guaranteed a place in a very competitive 'Eagles' side and had to be farmed out to other teams.

 

Again, precisely my point.

 

The standard was such that riders could become 'proven' very quickly.

 

In the lower leagues there were no 'foreign' (Danes, Swedes, Poles etc) so teams were made up with a lot more British riders. Just because a rider had a 6pt average didn't mean they were all that good, that's just a mathematical fact that a number of riders will attain that sort of figure.

 

When the league opened its doors to foreign riders, a number of them were brought in at a higher standard than the the British riders they were replacing (from the bottom ends of teams). The slightly better British riders moved down places in the team and it became much tougher to break into a team.

 

Obviously this had a knock on effect in that with less places available for British riders, less of them made the transition from junior racing/2nd halves etc. With less chance of transition less riders took up the sport and gradually we've arrived where we are now.

 

The Conference/National League and indeed leagues such as the MDL below that have begun to create more of a pipeline for young British riders again.. however what needs to be done is the Premier League to do away with awful, journeymen foreign riders clogging up the reserve berths and have them for British riders only.

[steve roberts]

 

Again, precisely my point.

 

The standard was such that riders could become 'proven' very quickly.

 

In the lower leagues there were no 'foreign' (Danes, Swedes, Poles etc) so teams were made up with a lot more British riders. Just because a rider had a 6pt average didn't mean they were all that good, that's just a mathematical fact that a number of riders will attain that sort of figure.

 

When the league opened its doors to foreign riders, a number of them were brought in at a higher standard than the the British riders they were replacing (from the bottom ends of teams). The slightly better British riders moved down places in the team and it became much tougher to break into a team.

 

Obviously this had a knock on effect in that with less places available for British riders, less of them made the transition from junior racing/2nd halves etc. With less chance of transition less riders took up the sport and gradually we've arrived where we are now.

 

The Conference/National League and indeed leagues such as the MDL below that have begun to create more of a pipeline for young British riders again.. however what needs to be done is the Premier League to do away with awful, journeymen foreign riders clogging up the reserve berths and have them for British riders only.

I agree that 'foreign' riders at the commencement of their introduction to the lower league displaced many British riders but what started as 'star' foreign imports soon became replaced by humdrum foreigners when promoters saw the opportunity in going abroad for talent rather than developing their own assets.

 

The introduction of a points limit in the National League (1980ish?) also saw a manipulation of riding talent (and continues to do so) when riders with low averages became sought after which left middle order riders somewhat out on a limb and a less desirable commodity.

Edited July 25, 2016 by steve roberts

[E I Addio]

 

Having followed the sport extensively for 32 years during the 70s, 80s, 90s & 00s at both levels (Division One and Two/New National and National Leagues) I'm not honestly aware of a rider who having learnt to ride a speedway bike within weeks being included and holding down a team place? Can you give an example just to clarify?

Wayne Briggs had never ridden in a Speedwáy meeting of any kind when at the age of 16 he was brought over and given a place in the Edinburgh team, on the strength of his brothers reputation.

 

I dont think many got into a team literally within weeks but there were a fair number that were already experienced in grass track and adapted quickly, and a fair number that got into a lower league team not within a few weeks but certainly after winter at training at Rye House, say a few months.

 

Like a lot of the past versus present arguments it is a bit futile because you cannot easily compare like with like but understanding modern bikes has a lot to do with it. Malcolm Simmons for example has said he started off using his grass track engine in his Speedwáy bike , which obviously woukd be impossible today. The problem for a lot of modern riders is understanding set ups, which was less important in the past. Many young riders have no idea how to set a bike up. I remember when Richie Worrall first rode at Lakeside as a fairly raw novice he couldn't get his bike to pull so Piotr Swiderski's mechanic set his bike up like Swidders bike and he was flying, and of course he has built in that since. I think something similar happened with Ben Morely in the first year of fast track. He wasn't up to speed on set ups so Lewis Bridgers mechanic set his bike up like Bridgers and he went out and beat Adam Skornicki. That was not necessary of course in Malcolm Simmons novice days.

[steve roberts]

Wayne Briggs had never ridden in a Speedwáy meeting of any kind when at the age of 16 he was brought over and given a place in the Edinburgh team, on the strength of his brothers reputation.

 

I dont think many got into a team literally within weeks but there were a fair number that were already experienced in grass track and adapted quickly, and a fair number that got into a lower league team not within a few weeks but certainly after winter at training at Rye House, say a few months.

 

Like a lot of the past versus present arguments it is a bit futile because you cannot easily compare like with like but understanding modern bikes has a lot to do with it. Malcolm Simmons for example has said he started off using his grass track engine in his Speedwáy bike , which obviously woukd be impossible today. The problem for a lot of modern riders is understanding set ups, which was less important in the past. Many young riders have no idea how to set a bike up. I remember when Richie Worrall first rode at Lakeside as a fairly raw novice he couldn't get his bike to pull so Piotr Swiderski's mechanic set his bike up like Swidders bike and he was flying, and of course he has built in that since. I think something similar happened with Ben Morely in the first year of fast track. He wasn't up to speed on set ups so Lewis Bridgers mechanic set his bike up like Bridgers and he went out and beat Adam Skornicki. That was not necessary of course in Malcolm Simmons novice days.

Thank you for that example. Few and far between.

 

John Louis soon broke into the Ipswich team but he had experience riding scambles (as it was known then) and Simon Wigg grass tracking. Certainly not a case of a few weeks.

 

I would agree it's difficult, if impossible, to compare then and now because so much is very different...especially in machinery, as you say, and team make-ups due to various stipulations within the rules.

Edited July 25, 2016 by steve roberts

[BWitcher]

There are more than that, there's a number of interviews in Backtrack magazine with riders saying they were in teams literally within a few weeks of going for their 'first ever ride'.

 

We've had this conversation before, I think it was Grachan that backed me up having read similar interviews.

[Hodgy]

Again, precisely my point.

 

The standard was such that riders could become 'proven' very quickly.

 

In the lower leagues there were no 'foreign' (Danes, Swedes, Poles etc) so teams were made up with a lot more British riders. Just because a rider had a 6pt average didn't mean they were all that good, that's just a mathematical fact that a number of riders will attain that sort of figure.

 

When the league opened its doors to foreign riders, a number of them were brought in at a higher standard than the the British riders they were replacing (from the bottom ends of teams). The slightly better British riders moved down places in the team and it became much tougher to break into a team.

 

Obviously this had a knock on effect in that with less places available for British riders, less of them made the transition from junior racing/2nd halves etc. With less chance of transition less riders took up the sport and gradually we've arrived where we are now.

 

The Conference/National League and indeed leagues such as the MDL below that have begun to create more of a pipeline for young British riders again.. however what needs to be done is the Premier League to do away with awful, journeymen foreign riders clogging up the reserve berths and have them for British riders only.

Agree with you on this. Who would have believed permitting Jens Rasmussen to ride for Rye House in the PL 1988 would result in such a major impact on British Speedway. Wonder where we would be now if they hadn't opened the door. Better or worse?

 

Seeing some positive shoots from the NL, MDL, Vatcher and team youth development set up. Several promising young lads making good progress. Hope it continues.

[Humphrey Appleby]

I agree that 'foreign' riders at the commencement of their introduction to the lower league displaced many British riders but what started as 'star' foreign imports soon became replaced by humdrum foreigners when promoters saw the opportunity in going abroad for talent rather than developing their own assets.

The introduction of a points limit in the National League (1980ish?) also saw a manipulation of riding talent (and continues to do so) when riders with low averages became sought after which left middle order riders somewhat out on a limb and a less desirable commodity.

I think the underlying reason is the split between the BL and NL and the need to pay transfer or loan fees for British-based riders. Bringing in a foreign rider was thus cheaper, although of course Commonwealth riders were always allowed in the lower leagues as far as I know.

There are more than that, there's a number of interviews in Backtrack magazine with riders saying they were in teams literally within a few weeks of going for their 'first ever ride'.

It would be interesting, although I suspect difficult to get some analysis of the reality. However, it's probably not a huge leap for an experienced motocrosser to move into speedway, which many were encouraged to do because there was more money in speedway. Many riders would also have had grass track experience, although from memory grasstrackers didn't tend to make hugely successful speedway riders, obviously with some notable exceptions. It's something also observed by John Berry in his book.

 

An analogy would be racing drivers moving between single seaters and touring cars. Good drivers can undoubtedly switch disciplines and give a reasonable account of themselves with minimal time in the seat because the skills are interchangeable.

[FAST GATER]

Years ago most but not all riders( the likes of Kelvin Tattum , Andy Smith and Joe Screen went in BL straight off) started in the second half of meetings in those days the old NL and the Gulf British league ,firstly in the NL s/halves making the team then about a season later having ago in the s/halves of the Gulf league .From this position they were then offered BL places to cover injury etc before D/U on regular bacis ultimately moving up to full time BL after about 3yrs.This seemed to work quite well IMO as a general rule of thumb a NL number 1 was the same level as a BL reserve of course you had riders that never left the NL or never made the grade or could not make a living in the BL.

Edited July 26, 2016 by FAST GATER