Scunthorpe Scorpions Vs Edinburgh Monarchs ( P L) - Sunday, July 17th (6.30pm)

[Al Stewart]

so one rule was broken (guest) because another was overidden (pl/nl priority)

So you are saying 2 wrongs sometimes do make a right??

If we are instructed by the BSPA that our rider must be elsewhere, we are entitled to a facility. They are the arbiters on the rules. There's no point trying to be precise about the rulebook because it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

Even if you don't accept that we should have had a facility, the NL Green Sheets are clear that Davey can be a NL guest.

 

There isn't an argument to be made here.

[Alan_Jones]

 

The rulebook says,

 

3.9 a ii is the relevant bit here. As long as Scunny protested within 4 hours of knowing about Davey (Edinburgh didnt declare him until the morning of the meeting) then the protest is legal.

 

He wasn't legitimately riding for BV though. PL always gets priority over NL.

 

The rulebook says,

He's not an EDR to 16.1.1, 16.1.2, 16.1.3 and 16.1.4 are not relevant. PL trumps NL.

 

PL doesn't always get priority though as in the regs you posted. Bewley is doubling up which brings 16.1.1 & 2 into play, and the PL match was a rearranged fixture (16.1.3) so it's game set and match to Edinburgh.

[lucifer sam]

If we are instructed by the BSPA that our rider must be elsewhere, we are entitled to a facility. They are the arbiters on the rules. There's no point trying to be precise about the rulebook because it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

Even if you don't accept that we should have had a facility, the NL Green Sheets are clear that Davey can be a NL guest.

 

There isn't an argument to be made here.

 

Al, mistakes on the Green Sheet averages can be corrected. Remember the beginning of last year, when Alex Davies was given a very strange average and was all to set to line up at reserve for Scorpions at Edinburgh, only for Monarchs to put out the error prior to the meeting, prompting a late minute switch of the Scunny line-up?

 

Davey clearly cannot be used as a NL guest. I can't believe that the ever-shrewd Monarchs' management didn't realise that.

 

Oh, and stop all this stuff about NL taking priority. That simply doesn't happen. There may be a gentleman's agreement between Edinburgh and Belle Vue regarding Bewley, but stop pretending that it entitles you to anything but a NL guest.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited July 18, 2016 by lucifer sam

[SCB]

PL doesn't always get priority though as in the regs you posted. Bewley is doubling up which brings 16.1.1 & 2 into play, and the PL match was a rearranged fixture (16.1.3) so it's game set and match to Edinburgh.

He's not doubling up. He's full time in both teams. He doesn't share a place in either team to be doubling up. My understanding is doubling up always meant two riders sharing a position, not a rider riding for two teams, because a rider who rides in 3 leagues is not refereed to as tripling up!

 

NL has never had priority over PL.

 

I do agree that the lack of definition of "doubling up" doesn't help here, its the only place it's mentioned in the rulebook.

 

 

edit> Doubling up is refereed to, in EL team declarations. Nothing about it in PL or NL rules. My definition above is wrong though. A "doubling up rider" appears to be a rider riding in two leagues, but not an EDR, they're EDRs and not double uppers!

 

 

How about this rule?

19.9.3 Where a rider is additionally declared in a PL and/or EL Team, the EL and/or PL Team shall have priority, except that a rider nominated for the NLRC must appear in the NLRC. 19

Quite clear to me! Edited July 18, 2016 by SCB

[Al Stewart]

So your argument is:

 

The BSPA order us to let Dan ride elsewhere - but we can't have a facility.

 

AND

 

The BSPA green sheets say Davey can ride as a NL guest - but he can't.

 

A bit of a confused argument.

[SCB]

So your argument is:

 

The BSPA order us to let Dan ride elsewhere - but we can't have a facility.

 

AND

 

The BSPA green sheets say Davey can ride as a NL guest - but he can't.

 

A bit of a confused argument.

19.9.3 Where a rider is additionally declared in a PL and/or EL Team, the EL and/or PL Team shall have priority, except that a rider nominated for the NLRC must appear in the NLRC. 19

He should NOT have been riding for BV. Argue that, not that Davey was allowed to guest.

 

Just because the BSPA say something doesn't make it right, sadly for you.

Edited July 18, 2016 by SCB

[yoda]

M Davey can not take the place of Dan Bewley, first instance is that a PL club will have priority over a NL club so Bewley should have been riding for Edinburgh, secondly M Davey has had an average over 4 at some point in his career, 4.23 I believe?

 

Edinburgh probably didn't check with the bspa for approval, but there pretty shrewd guys in the east normally, this time however they have broke the rules ,

An Aussie riding in a spot meant for British youngsters, no, not on I'm afraid !!!

 

 

firstly Mitchell Davey is British

 

secondly Edinburgh's fixture with Scunthorpe was a re-arranged fixture so belle vue have priority

and .

at no point is a number 7 spot for youngsters ? how old is danny aryes

[SCB]

secondly Edinburgh's fixture with Scunthorpe was a re-arranged fixture so belle vue have priority

No, not true.

[cyclone]

 

You mean this one:

 

18.10 FACILITIES

a1) Absent #1: G or RR

a2) Absent D-U or EDR (if riding for the “other” team) G or RR

b ) 1 Absent rider (2 – 5): RR

c) More than 1 Absent rider (1 - 5) 1 x RR facility and G for all others

d) Absent #6 or #7: G

e) “No Facility”: NL G*

NL G*: a rider eligible for a NL Team who has never achieved an actual PL MA of 4.00 or above

 

A quick check of the BSPA website shows that Mitchell Davey's average has gone above 4.00 in the past. For example, I spotted that his GSA for October 2009 was 4.23.

 

All the best

Rob

 

What you were looking at is the 2009 Team Declarations, which appear to be calculated differently, and which were used for team building purposes, to the Green Sheets .

 

If you compare them it appears that for every team the figure referred to in the October Team Declarations are there are differences to the Oct 2009 Green Sheet.

 

Here are Glasgow's for October 2009:-

 

Team Declaration

 

1 James Grieves 9.49

2 Shane Parker 9.08

3 Josh Grajczonek 6.21

4 William Lawson 5.56

5 Aleksander Conda 5.00

6 Lee Dicken 4.67

7 Mitchell Davey 4.23

Total 44.24

.

Green Sheet

 

Glasgow M H A R Pts 2008 2009 Previous Club

James Grieves 36 19 17 172 370 8.63 8.55

Shane Parker 33 17 16 157 320 9.01 8.15

William Lawson 35 16 19 160 262 5.56 6.55 See Prev. Club

Josh Grajczonek 27 13 14 124 193 5.25 6.28

Aleksander Conda *Ass* 5 2 3 16 4 5.00

Lee Dicken 24 12 12 128 134 4.67 4.19

Mitchell Davey 38 19 19 209 197 3.00 3.77

 

Looking at the above, can you explain how the likes of Grieves (- 0.94) and Parker (-0.53) would differ so much, given that Glasgow only rode 2 Challenge matches during October, 2009 ?

Edited July 18, 2016 by cyclone

[speed ace]

Seems to me the inclusion of Davey was a massive gamble for the Monarchs on more than one front.

Was there no other eligible riders available on the day?, as after only two competitive NL matches in the last three years I don't think his inclusion was done to strengthen their team, obviously they were being loyal to one of their own assets, or am I being naive? Did they know something about Davey the rest of us have missed?

[lucifer sam]

 

What you were looking at is the 2009 Team Declarations, which appear to be calculated differently, and which were used for team building purposes, to the Green Sheets .

 

If you compare them it appears that for every team the figure referred to in the October Team Declarations are there are differences to the Oct 2009 Green Sheet.

 

Here are Glasgow's for October 2009:-

 

Team Declaration

 

1 James Grieves 9.49

2 Shane Parker 9.08

3 Josh Grajczonek 6.21

4 William Lawson 5.56

5 Aleksander Conda 5.00

6 Lee Dicken 4.67

7 Mitchell Davey 4.23

Total 44.24

.

Green Sheet

 

Glasgow M H A R Pts 2008 2009 Previous Club

James Grieves 36 19 17 172 370 8.63 8.55

Shane Parker 33 17 16 157 320 9.01 8.15

William Lawson 35 16 19 160 262 5.56 6.55 See Prev. Club

Josh Grajczonek 27 13 14 124 193 5.25 6.28

Aleksander Conda *Ass* 5 2 3 16 4 5.00

Lee Dicken 24 12 12 128 134 4.67 4.19

Mitchell Davey 38 19 19 209 197 3.00 3.77

 

Looking at the above, can you explain how the likes of Grieves (- 0.94) and Parker (-0.53) would differ so much, given that Glasgow only rode 2 Challenge matches during October, 2009 ?

 

Let’s have a look at the two sets of figures for Monarchs, who finished their 2009 fixtures early:

 

Team declaration:

 

1 Ryan Fisher 8.25

2 Andrew Tully 7.33

3 Kevin Wolbert 7.00

4 Matthew Wethers 6.97

5 Michal Rajowski 6.33

6 Aaron Summers 6.07

7 Kalle Katajisto 3.00

Total 44.95

 

Green Sheet:

 

Ryan Fisher 37 18 19 178 367 7.40 8.25

Andrew Tully 21 12 9 96 176 6.80 7.33

Kevin Wolbert *Ass* 11 6 5 48 105 7.00 Ass

Matthew Wethers 38 19 19 182 317 7.30 6.97

Michal Rajkowski 38 19 19 189 299 4.33 6.33

Aaron Summers 37 19 18 197 299 5.00 6.07

Kalle Katajisto *Ass* 0 0 0 0 0 3.00 Ass

Tomas Jonasson 9 3 6 41 80 7.32

Sean Stoddart 19 10 9 62 45 3.59 3.00

Byron Bekker 38 18 20 137 93 3.00 3.00 See Prev. Club

Max Dilger *Ass* 12 5 7 41 22 7.00 3.00

 

EXACTLY the same. It’s clear that the team declaration figures did not include bonus points for 2009, and that Glasgow simply had an awful October.

 

Mitchell Davey’s GSA (excluding bonus) was 4.23 during 2009 (before his final figure for the year at 3.77). It’s there in black and white.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited July 19, 2016 by lucifer sam

[Bostonian]

It's a shame all this is clouding over what was a fantastic meeting!

 

Couldn't believe they way heat 15 went either, quiet enjoyed Master's little celebrations in front of the fans after too after taking some unfair flack at the tapes.

Rob and his gang on the centre green we're nearly running with the MPT & Wilko in heat 14, was great to watch.

Think heat 7 was the best non-passing race I've seen.

 

 

I can't recall the last time I went to Scunthorpe and saw a bad meeting. I wish they could get the crowd's the racing deserves.

Think its time Sky sports paid them a visit.

[Gazc]

 

 

firstly Mitchell Davey is British

 

secondly Edinburgh's fixture with Scunthorpe was a re-arranged fixture so belle vue have priority

and .

at no point is a number 7 spot for youngsters ? how old is danny aryes

 

What has Danny Ayres got to do with it he was eligible to ride as a No 7 because well he was. Mitchell Davey was deemed not at the season start I couldn't care less what Edinburgh do or don't do for that matter.

 

Danny's age has nothing to do with it as he was a late starter to the sport ridiculous argument to make for there balls up .

Edited July 18, 2016 by Gazc

[allthegearbutnaeidea]

Mitchell Davey was riding in the PL with over a 4 average before Danny Ayres knew what speedway was

[bigcatdiary]

Yet another classic example of how good our rule book is, with one club saying they are right and another saying they are.

 

Quite why the BSPA cannot issue a set of averages monthly that shows EVERY riders GSA and a converted GSA for EL/PL and even NL where applicable is beyond me.

 

Everyone could then work to one set of averages and applicable guests could be sorted without any of this aggravation.

[Fromafar]

You need to go to matches hoping to be entertained(it looks as though this was a cracker) make up of teams is secondary nowadays.Everybody tries to pull a fast one if they can.Guests R/R and calling off matches is normal nowadays for your Clubs benefit .

[mac101]

Pretty sure Mitch came over on a assessed ave which would have been 5 then it became 4.23 pretty simple

[IronScorpion]

Master's celebrations were probably because it's a track he generally would say it is one of his poorest, yet, because of a good season, celebrated accordingly. Rode hard throughout trying to make an impression. Heat 1 gifted a win because of Ryan's mistake, but you,ve got to be ready. Heat 11 shot from the inside gate straight to the crown of bends 1 & 2 aka Howe, hoping to stop the run of MPT on gate 4 but MPT & Josh read it & dived up the inside. Master's then got a run of speed down the back straight into bend 3, nearly taking both Scorpions out, then later, got drive mid corner taking out Josh. Racing incident.

 

After Kerr's exclusion, due to Ryan almost locking up, Kerr laid his bike down. In the re-run, I said to friends to expect Master's to do everything to get a 5-1. Master's then stopped Ryan's run on bend 3 leaving him nowhere to go but lay it down. Possible win or draw then became the formality of a loss unless the unexpected retirement occurred. Unfortunately, our luck was out.

 

All in all though, a thoroughly entertaining meeting, as usual, with the result in doubt until the unfortunate heat 15.

[cyclone]

 

Let’s have a look at the two sets of figures for Monarchs, who finished their 2009 fixtures early:

 

Team declaration:

 

1 Ryan Fisher 8.25

2 Andrew Tully 7.33

3 Kevin Wolbert 7.00

4 Matthew Wethers 6.97

5 Michal Rajowski 6.33

6 Aaron Summers 6.07

7 Kalle Katajisto 3.00

Total 44.95

 

Green Sheet:

 

Ryan Fisher 37 18 19 178 367 7.40 8.25

Andrew Tully 21 12 9 96 176 6.80 7.33

Kevin Wolbert *Ass* 11 6 5 48 105 7.00 Ass

Matthew Wethers 38 19 19 182 317 7.30 6.97

Michal Rajkowski 38 19 19 189 299 4.33 6.33

Aaron Summers 37 19 18 197 299 5.00 6.07

Kalle Katajisto *Ass* 0 0 0 0 0 3.00 Ass

Tomas Jonasson 9 3 6 41 80 7.32

Sean Stoddart 19 10 9 62 45 3.59 3.00

Byron Bekker 38 18 20 137 93 3.00 3.00 See Prev. Club

Max Dilger *Ass* 12 5 7 41 22 7.00 3.00

 

EXACTLY the same. It’s clear that the team declaration figures did not include bonus points for 2009, and that Glasgow simply had an awful October.

 

Mitchell Davey’s GSA (excluding bonus) was 4.23 during 2009. It’s there in black and white.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

Firstly as I had previously mentioned, Glasgow only rode 2 Challenge Matches throughout October 2009, so how could they have had "an awful October" ?

 

On the BSPA Website - under the heading - 2009 Premier League Greensheet Averages, Mitchell Davey is listed as 3.77.

 

What you are referring to is called - 2009 Premier League Team Declarations.

 

As the BSPA has differentiated between the two categories, when referring to Greensheet Averages for 2009, is it not logical to refer to the one named 2009 Premier League Greensheet Averages?

[Gr8scot]

Yesterday was what Kelvin Tatum would call " speedway out the top drawer" ...... Huge well done to both teams, simply superb!!!

Edited July 18, 2016 by Gr8scot