theblueboy Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Ive already said this umpteen times. If you have a sqaud system riders will expect a retainer. Why? They are self-employed workers. Do you pay a brickie/sparky a retainer on the off chance he does some work for you? I would think there are benefits to a squad system e.g allowing under performing riders to be moved to the sidelines a lot quicker with Promoters more likely to make a change and you can include a 'horses for courses' system rather than the traditional sick note which allows a guest or RR. It's clear that regular speedway is a must. 14 fixtures over 6 months is not good for cash flow. Whether a cup competition is the answer I am not so sure. They were never well attended at Swindon even when Sir Leigh of Mildura was a regular. The promoters continually get it wrong and cannot be trusted in any shape or form. The EDR in principal is a great idea and having seen Chas Wright over the last 18 months and Steve Worrall before that you have to say it works. I am sure there are plenty of success stories at other clubs, however, it was the supporters on this forum that highlighted the shortcomings of that particular system so you have to wonder what they actually talk about at the AGM and whether there is a brain cell between them. I don't understand why they don't speak to someone like SCB who clearly knows the rule book and is respected (well mostly 😋) on the forum and get them to float ideas via him. Supporters could give feedback, which SCB could interpret and then they discuss at the AGM. There are plenty of intelligent and knowledgeable people who could provide reasoned debate and look at ant shortcomings in a short space of time on various subjects that potentially could improve speedway. The sport is dying no question. Clubs continue to haemorrhage fans at an alarming rate but the promoters need to change the way they think and look ahead for the long term, stop being so bloody short term and look at benefits for the sport across all levels and not just 2017. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) Why? They are self-employed workers. Do you pay a brickie/sparky a retainer on the off chance he does some work for you? No you dont, but that brickie or sparky or plumber is not retained by you. And i believe if we had a squad system that would be the case. Which in that case, the less afluent clubs would not be able to entertain it. Edited July 10, 2016 by Starman2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Why? They are self-employed workers. Do you pay a brickie/sparky a retainer on the off chance he does some work for you? You would if you want that brickie to be available just when you want to use him and for him not to take offers from rival builders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) they would have to be on a retainer of some kind, because say for example if poole are looking to sign a rider that happens to be in another teams squad but hasnt yet been picked for a match he's unlikely to say no to being signed by poole if promised regular matches, it could open up a whole can of worms with clubs poaching other clubs squad members who due to not havin been picked much wouldnt say no .... this would happen due to there not being enough riders as it is Edited July 10, 2016 by heathen chemistry 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz01 Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 If there is to be fixed race days then it has to be consecutive, riders will not travel here twice in a week. Wed-Thur has to be favoured option. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 they would have to be on a retainer of some kind, Riders sign a contract in which they commit to be at team X's exclusive disposal (for that league) during the length of the contract (usually 1-2 seasons). Need to make it more complicated then it already is. Possible some riders (like Laguta's, Nicki, Holder, Tai and etc) are expecting a signing bonus but no rider will get paid when they are not riding, the opposite would be financial suicide by any team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) Riders sign a contract in which they commit to be at team X's exclusive disposal (for that league) during the length of the contract (usually 1-2 seasons). Need to make it more complicated then it already is. Possible some riders (like Laguta's, Nicki, Holder, Tai and etc) are expecting a signing bonus but no rider will get paid when they are not riding, the opposite would be financial suicide by any team. No rider would sign those conditions without payment unless they were desperate and who would want them. Would you sign to work exclusively for one company without getting paid? Edited July 10, 2016 by A ORLOV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 If there is to be fixed race days then it has to be consecutive, riders will not travel here twice in a week. Wed-Thur has to be favoured option. with ford wanting more matches its likely there would be flyin in out twice a week especially if theres a few rain offs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Why aren't there at least 7 other threads entitled ".........................(insert name of EL Promoter) 's...Vision for the Elite League in 2017"?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) Riders sign a contract in which they commit to be at team X's exclusive disposal (for that league) during the length of the contract (usually 1-2 seasons). Need to make it more complicated then it already is. Possible some riders (like Laguta's, Nicki, Holder, Tai and etc) are expecting a signing bonus but no rider will get paid when they are not riding, the opposite would be financial suicide by any team. Riders currently sign a contract knowing they will ride in every match. Asking a rider to sign a contract and commit himself to a club he may never be required to ride for (therefore earn nothing) is a different kettle of fish. Edited July 10, 2016 by Vincent Blackshadow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) No rider would sign those conditions without payment unless they were desperate and who would want them. Would you sign to work exclusively for one company without getting paid? Riders currently sign a contract knowing they will ride in every match. Asking a rider to sign a contract and commit himself to a club he may never be required to ride for (therefore earn nothing) is a different kettle of fish. Apparently riders are willing to sign for Swedish and Polish clubs without being guaranteed neither payment or riding opportunities. If you look at Masarna, only two riders have ridden in all of Masarna's meetings: https://ta.svemo.se/Public/Pages/TeamSections.aspx?Branch=Speedway&Season=2016&Serie=Elitserien&PageType=Sections&pagesize=10&TeamId=519 The same goes for Rospiggarna (and every other team): https://ta.svemo.se/Public/Pages/TeamSections.aspx?Branch=Speedway&Season=2016&Serie=Elitserien&PageType=Sections&pagesize=10&TeamId=523 Of course riders are not happy to be sidlined for a meeting but they still accepts it since it is better then to not do any meetings at all. Edited July 12, 2016 by Ghostwalker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 Riders currently sign a contract knowing they will ride in every match. Asking a rider to sign a contract and commit himself to a club he may never be required to ride for (therefore earn nothing) is a different kettle of fish. HAPPENS in Poland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) HAPPENS in Poland So you can see a situation where, using this year's riders, KK would be happy to sign a contract to be Poole's back-up rider (with Andersen and Holder as the regulars) and perhaps never ride rather than signing for Coventry and riding every match and not ask for some form of compo for the earnings he will miss? Edited July 11, 2016 by Vincent Blackshadow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) The MF proposals (still not seen anyone else's except a couple of comments from Chairman Buster about a 6-man racing format) are about a squad system providing more meetings and allowing some of those GP and non-GP riders not currently in the EL the opportunity to do a predetermined number of EL fixtures on one or two fixed days per week. Lindback is quoted in an interview from Saturday that 'he hoped something can be sorted out for him to return to EL'. The same applies to the likes of Magic, Kildermand, Hancock, P.Pawlicki even Pedersen. Amongst the non-GP riders there are the likes of Madsen, Vaculik, Smolinski, Shamek Pawlicki and Sayfutdinov again. If the right financial and logistical details can be sorted out, some riders may well consider dropping one of their foreign leagues where often they are initally attracted by big-money contracts which are not fulfilled or they are not selected for meetings so don't earn!! All is not that rosy in the foreign leagues, so there is a real opportunity for the top British League to get back some of their past kudos. Edited July 11, 2016 by Skidder1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 Matts saw the 40 meetings we scheduled at the start of the year and wants to emulate that, good on him I say. Though we'd currently struggle to have another GP rider in the team due to points limits another squad member would be good to keep Zagar on his toes. We're trying different racedays to gauge response with currently only Tuesday & Thursday not being used this year. It's all about testing things out and to have Ford on board looking for positive change can only help us. Onwards and upwards I say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) So you can see a situation where, using this year's riders, KK would be happy to sign a contract to be Poole's back-up rider (with Andersen and Holder as the regulars) and perhaps never ride rather than signing for Coventry and riding every match and not ask for some form of compo for the earnings he will miss? That is how it works. KK can only blame himself if agreeing to be a back-up rider instead of signing with another club at which me might have gotten more riding opportunities.As I said it is down to the riders themselves to decide where they want to ride. If riders X thinks team B's offer (payrate/riding opportunities ) is better then team A's then don't complain if you sign with team A. Edited July 12, 2016 by Ghostwalker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblueboy Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 So you can see a situation where, using this year's riders, KK would be happy to sign a contract to be Poole's back-up rider (with Andersen and Holder as the regulars) and perhaps never ride rather than signing for Coventry and riding every match and not ask for some form of compo for the earnings he will miss? Because KK is self-employed he is free to pick his club and his rate of payment. That is the preserve of anyone that works for themselves. He would have to determine the risk. If he is not performing well enough he is not selected. No retainer is necessary as he is free to find another club, whether it is here or in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 Because KK is self-employed he is free to pick his club and his rate of payment. That is the preserve of anyone that works for themselves. He would have to determine the risk. If he is not performing well enough he is not selected. No retainer is necessary as he is free to find another club, whether it is here or in Europe. So, given that all speedway riders like to earn money - that's why they do it - where are these (#1 standard) stand-by riders coming from? As you say, they'll weigh up their chances and go to where they'll get regular rides, the better ones, that is, if they only get paid when they ride. Would Poole be happy with a 6 point rider as their top stand-by man? I think not, so a payment of some kind will have to be made to secure a good heat leader standard rider is ready to step in when required. It's an opinion, no more than that. The issue of squads has been talked about amongst promoters for some time now but has never happened. If riders were happy to sign for a club and just twiddle their thumbs waiting whilst two other riders were raking in the earnings the promoters would have had nothing to lose so would have gone with it. As I say, just an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 darcy ward said in the SS that he couldnt see many of the top stars riding over here if they had squads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) Riders wouldn't be 'twiddling their thumbs' as you put it. They would agree to a prearranged number (and dates?) of meetings. Quite a few of the top riders NOT currently riding in the EL only want a limited number of EL meetings - ideally on set race nights. Those GP riders understandably would want to avoid EL fixtures that interfere with their GP arrangements, but there are more than just a few non-GP riders - some of whom I listed earlier - who would still consider say 10-12 meetings in the EL. Obviously, there may be some difference in abilities between the 'top' riders (eg. Hancock vs THJ; NKI vs Bech) but that would be down to each promoter to select the right mix of squad!! Edited July 12, 2016 by Skidder1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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