Next Season...promotion And Relegation....

[damosuzuki]

I am positive about any changes tbh, and the leagues could well be a better idea, certainly the elite has provided some great meetings lately but as a format it struggles. However the one real issue I have (and it's a total disaster waiting to happen) is the tactical substitute rule. Yes we all like close meetings, but if this is artificial (whether brought about by TR or tactical substitutions, it looks like you will be more likely to get unfair results.

 

Yes, I love a 46 - 44, but not when it's artificially created to maintain 'entertainment'. Sometimes a hammering is the correct result. Who wants to see (say) Belle Vue vs Bobbington amateurs draw just because it keeps the excitement going.... The averages system is meant to deal with this and if it doesn't then that should be looked at, not allowing teams in effect to cheat because they are being beat.

[heathen chemistry]

the promoters should be the ones relegated!!!

[enotian]

Indeed. If the cost of running a meeting is greater than the gate receipts generated then you're better off running less meetings, presuming sponsorship and TV money is more or less fixed for the season.

 

So if promoters have decided that more variety and meetings is the way to go then they must be either expecting gate receipts to increase or the cost of running the meetings are going to de reduced. I think we can all see that it's the later. Loosing 2 riders per meeting will go some way re travelling costs but the proposal is still for 15 heat matches so basically the same points money.

 

So I think it's a fair assumption that the cost reductions will be generated from the removal of high earners. So there'll be no GP riders in either division. It'll basically be two divisions of PL standard teams. Remember the idea behind the proposal is that any team can move up the ladder from National League to become the British Elite league champions. That means a team like Newcastle being in the top league and running home matches on Sunday's. So really only domestically based riders will be involved which is probably the reason for 6 man teams more than anything else. Imagine what Poole team would turn up at Newcastle on a Sunday without guests!? And remember when the current PL started in the mid to late 90's it was 6 man teams which I think was due to rider availability. It was binned off after 1 season I think.

 

And two divisions of say 12 teams doesn't offer variety anyway. The fixture list would have to be twice home and away which appears to be unpopular at present anyway.

 

Promotion/Relegation in a football sense is a draw because so much is at stake financially. At lower levels lots of teams refuse promotion because they'd be worse off having to travel greater distances without their being any greater reward. Take a look at the Northern League. It's in the pyramid but often the winners don't move up.

 

Promotion/Relegation in speedway would be more akin to the Northern league than Premier league. Plus it would only be a matter of time before a relegated team is reinstated because one of the top flight teams has gone bust.

 

British promoters need to decide what they want the product to be.

 

If they want a top level product with GP riders they need to find a format to accommodate them. Most notably a fixed race night and ability to generate higher levels of income to cover the higher costs. (i.e. better tracks, better facilities, better promotion)

 

Or if they want speedway 7 nights a week with home meetings every week they'll need to produce a product which costs less than the limited income it generates.

 

Mucking about with heat formats and introducing promotion/relegation is just tinkering at the seams.

 

My point being that there's no radical thinking here just a re-hash of what has already been tried before.

[foamfence]

the promoters should be the ones relegated!!!

Then there'd be nothing.

[RobMcCaffery]

 

And this is where Speedway again is a farce...how do you as a club sign up to something then refuse to go up or down?

 

What other sport would allow this?

 

If you are signed up and contracted to run in a formulated league system....then you should abide by it. If not...then do one.

 

If it is because of costs...then here in lies the problem.

 

Surely some sort of Financial fair play rules should be brought in, like they do in other sports.

 

Where by you are only allowed to spend in wages a percentage of your total income.

 

If Owners want to put into the club their own money towards other running costs then fine...but wages should reflect the incoming gate receipts imo.

Actually that shining example of perfect sporting organisation and credibility (apparently) football is an example, Cinderford Town refused to be promoted from the Southern League South and West despite winning it, citing increased cost, especially travel.

 

They have now been forced to accept the promotion as a side issue to Evesham Town's successful appeal to be included in the SL South & West rather than the Northern Premier, thus leaving the SL division with too many clubs.

 

Cinderford are now claiming their entire business model is under threat, especially the need to pay £30k to HMRC.

 

Yes, football, a circus-like farce, eh?

Everyone seems to agree that Poland and Sweden are the two countries where speedway is more popular. Both of their league structures support promotion and relegation so why should it be insurmountable here?

Money.

[Humphrey Appleby]

They have now been forced to accept the promotion as a side issue to Evesham Town's successful appeal to be included in the SL South & West rather than the Northern Premier, thus leaving the SL division with too many clubs.

Plus of course the Northern League which refused to take part in pyramid for years (despite being considered one of the top non-FL leagues for much of its history), and since reluctantly doing so, has hardly ever promoted a team. Of course, the North-East is a bit out on geographical limb (although far less so than the Western League that promotes teams) and playing local derbies all the time suits the teams, but it does show the reality of marginal competitions.

[Steve Shovlar]

Just on that point, Matt Ford has stated that he wants his track to run more league meeting. He believes more is needed not less & is fully aware that he may not see the GP guys no longer.

 

For once, the promoters are trying to look at what's best for British Speedway as a whole and the majority seem to be agreeing more fixtures, 6 man teams & possibly lose the higher earners is the way forward.

 

The promoters have stated this will be trialled in front of fans to before being rubber stamped

 

The only issue I see going forward is the fact this could stifle British riders futures.

If Premier League standard is the aim, what does that do for the younger riders i.e. Robert Lambert's etc who by 2018 should be past that standard.

Are these guys going to have to give up British Speedway ala Tai Woffinden to better themselves.

 

Exactly. Do well, get to the top and, hey, you cant ride here anymore as you are too good for the uk leagues.

 

 

Sadly looking at the crowds in the Pl is does look like the public do not feel the same ....as I said many, many times every idea that uk speedway comes up with always means that the crowd will take about drop ..it's been the same mistake they have been doing for the last 20 years .

 

Who are these GP riders who can't be arsed ? what fans at what clubs are moaning about AJ ,Doyle ,Puk ,Fast Fred ,Harris etc about lack of effort ? nothing worst than just saying things like that without little thought

PL crowds are generally poor. Water down the EL to PL standard and you dilute the crowd equally. EL fans want to see a higher standard of racing not PL reserve wobblers.

 

Great having two divisions but the top flight certainly needs to be stronger. No point in an A and B league. And there must always be a way where any rider in the world can ride in our top flight if they are offered a contract. Last thing we need is to bar the worlds best talent from our leagues.

 

i personally dont like the idea of six man teams at all.

[topsoil]

Would Berwick still be sh!te like every year though??

Must be some REALLY sh!te teams sitting below us then eh doylem?

[Starman2006]

 

 

Exactly. Do well, get to the top and, hey, you cant ride here anymore as you are too good for the uk leagues.

 

 

 

PL crowds are generally poor. Water down the EL to PL standard and you dilute the crowd equally. EL fans want to see a higher standard of racing not PL reserve wobblers.

 

Great having two divisions but the top flight certainly needs to be stronger. No point in an A and B league. And there must always be a way where any rider in the world can ride in our top flight if they are offered a contract. Last thing we need is to bar the worlds best talent from our leagues.

 

i personally dont like the idea of six man teams at all.

You seem to forget, many clubs are struggling now. How are they going to pay the top boys ? In shirt buttons ? Wont happen mate..

[waiheke1]

You seem to forget, many clubs are struggling now. How are they going to pay the top boys ? In shirt buttons ? Wont happen mate..

Zagar? Holder? AJ? Lindgren? Doyle? Kk? All being paid in shirt buttons?

The issue is. How many will drop off the gates if we don't have those. Cost is one thing, but revenue is just as important.

[foamfence]

The richer clubs will still get the up and coming riders who are guaranteed to improve, so not a great deal will change. Is this just an exercise in papering over the cracks? Even if all the teams were built to the same averages, you can't imagine such as Redcar being competitive against the Poole's of this world.

[moxey63]

Regarding promotion and relegation and the opinion that some teams may not want to move up, surely it is best to build all teams to suit the clubs that may not want to move up, even if it means an even weaker top league than now.

 

It seems a waste of time having the idea, if some teams don't want to move up. Surely the thing will fail when teams begin saying they can't afford to move up.

 

WE remember the Swindon thing of 1991 when they threatened to withdraw when they were relegated from Division One and then Second Division clubs refused to take their place in the top flight.

 

If it's going to work, look at the expected hurdles.

 

For me, even without the top boys, speedway surviving is better than pandering to those who don't really want to be here.

Edited June 18, 2016 by moxey63

[New Science]

Everyone seems to agree that Poland and Sweden are the two countries where speedway is more popular. Both of their league structures support promotion and relegation so why should it be insurmountable here?

The Polish system is a mess, teams going bust every year, Daugvapils win the league but don't get promoted and then other teams from the same division are offered there place,

[allthegearbutnaeidea]

The Polish system is a mess, teams going bust every year, Daugvapils win the league but don't get promoted and then other teams from the same division are offered there place,

and they're not even in Poland!

[Trees]

There's nothing wrong with trying to work out an acceptable match format that addresses the problems and complaints about the current one, although there are very limited options with 6 rider teams. However, it's just tinkering like many other times in the past unless the other aspects such as value for money, riders coming-and-going and the general presentation are not addressed.

 

Yes, it would be good to get to a situation where the leagues are approximately equal sized, or even better with more teams than now, but we're a long way from needing promotion and relegation in the sport at the moment.

I really don'the care whether we have promotion and relegation, let's get everything else right first .....

[RobMcCaffery]

I really don'the care whether we have promotion and relegation, let's get everything else right first .....

That's the point, it is part of getting the rest right. Effectively they're looking at one big league rather than two separate leagues with still a large gap in standards. At present there's too many to run as one league, hence the need for a split with movement between the two divisions.

 

If we end up with two leagues of the same relative strengths as today just with a few more in the top league then it will have been a failure.

 

They seem to be tackling several key problems - fixture shortage, tactical rides, rider shortages and absences, at least we have to hope so. Promotion and relegation is being seized upon by those who struggle to think of sport not being organised like football and is far from the essential part of this it seems to me.

[22A]

Will promotion/relegation ever work? When you have promoters changing the ideal points system to guarantee 3 points for any home win because supporters were disappointed in getting only 2 (after seeing a close presumably entertaining match!!!) can you see them accepting a relegation? Are the supporters desperate for promotion/relegation??? I know that the ex promoter involved in this was frustrated because he wanted the Diamonds to be the best in the country but could never achieve that goal under the existing format. Is the answer to dilute the product even further?

I am in favour of movement between the leagues.

However in football relegated teams release their better players to reduce their wage bill knowing their income will be reduced being lower down the structure.

In Rugby League the team relegated each year from their Super League release their top earners. They are then usually snapped up by the team that's just been promoted as many of their players won't be good enough for the next level up.

I see the same scenario in Speedway. Teams may be promoted & relegated, but many of the same riders will be in the same leagues.

[enotian]

I am in favour of movement between the leagues.

However in football relegated teams release their better players to reduce their wage bill knowing their income will be reduced being lower down the structure.

In Rugby League the team relegated each year from their Super League release their top earners. They are then usually snapped up by the team that's just been promoted as many of their players won't be good enough for the next level up.

I see the same scenario in Speedway. Teams may be promoted & relegated, but many of the same riders will be in the same leagues.

Except the reality, in speedway, is that won't happen.

 

Firstly, promotion to a division 1 would not result in any significant increase in revenues either from gate receipts or sponsorship/TV money. So how would a promoted team afford the star names required?

 

Secondly, what if, for example, Belle Vue are relegated and Newcastle are promoted. I can't see Matej Zagar turning down the Polish League to ride for Newcastle on a Sunday.

 

Let's be very clear on this, if anyone is expecting this proposal to result in the return of a first division of world class riders and a second division of PL standard they are massively mistaken.

 

This will be two leagues of PL standard teams. Not a problem for me as I enjoy that product I just don't see the point of two leagues of 10 teams. Although I can't really see there being 20 teams operating at PL level next season anyway. I also can't see what happens to the riders who double up at present. Whilst doubling up and guests are universally unpopular with the fans (me included) I wouldn't be happy if I was a double up rider going from circa 60 (plus guest) meetings to potentially 30 meetings with no guest opportunities. Yes riders could reduce their budget to fit but then how do you compete on a continental stage in terms of equipment and track time?

 

To appeal to a wider audience British speedway needs media exposure and what little it gets of that is via SGP and SWC. What happens when Great Britain has no riders of that standard because no British riders can earn enough or get enough track time to become competitive, having never had the opportunity to ride against that standard of rider domestically?

 

It seems obvious to me that the dilution of the Elite league has only resulted in a reduction in spectators. Whilst I'm happy watching PL standard racing a lot of punters only want to see the star names and vote with their feet accordingly.

 

The problem for British speedway is that it never embraced the introduction of the GP series and rise of the Polish leagues. It never adapted to facilitate itself into the top riders schedules and so many of the top riders have dropped it.

 

My point being, mucking around with heat formats, six man teams and promotion/relegation is not going to halt the decline. The really radical thinking required is how can the big names be incorporated to attract a wider audience and how can British riders become more competitive internationally?

[RobMcCaffery]

I feel people are being distracted by the promotion and relegation aspect of this proposal. What is far more relevant is the composition of the six man teams. If the first division were to remain at its present level there is no way the PL teams would be considering this.

 

The only way that this structure could work is by a levelling-out in team strengths between the two divisions and I can't see it being the PL tracks making the changes.

[22A]

The problem for British speedway is that it never embraced the introduction of the GP series and rise of the Polish leagues. It never adapted to facilitate itself into the top riders schedules and so many of the top riders have dropped it.

 

You have a valid point there. Dunno if it's true, but I heard it said that Thomas Gollub would not sign for a British team because racing is on different days of the week, making personal schedules difficult. Sweden, Denmark & Poland have all meetings on the same day. Here each club decides which day of the week they'll hold meetings and riders have to fit in each team's schedule with their own.