Vince Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 It's the sort of big overhaul that most have been saying the sport needs. It is being properly planned and trialled, not bought in on a whim as many say is usually the case. I applaud the effort and hope it succeeds. Now if they can just promote the sport as mad, bad and dangerous we might see a revival 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Everyone seems to agree that Poland and Sweden are the two countries where speedway is more popular. Both of their league structures support promotion and relegation so why should it be insurmountable here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Normal unworkable madness ...where do you start with the million reasons why this could never work . I reckon you would end teams trying to lose on purpose to stay up and go down So take away the promotion and relegation...you would be ok with the other proposed plans? If you look it another way...isn't it madness that a team/club sport like speedway, can't run two leagues with promotion and relegation? You may as well make the whole sport just Individual events...which tbh...I can see it eventually ending up like that. It seems so many want change...but when they try for the better...people find a million reasons not too. Catch 22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Everyone seems to agree that Poland and Sweden are the two countries where speedway is more popular. Both of their league structures support promotion and relegation so why should it be insurmountable here? Because Sweden and Poland have set race days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 And this is where Speedway again is a farce...how do you as a club sign up to something then refuse to go up or down? What other sport would allow this? If you are signed up and contracted to run in a formulated league system....then you should abide by it. If not...then do one. If it is because of costs...then here in lies the problem. Surely some sort of Financial fair play rules should be brought in, like they do in other sports. Where by you are only allowed to spend in wages a percentage of your total income. If Owners want to put into the club their own money towards other running costs then fine...but wages should reflect the incoming gate receipts imo. They're not, they sign up to whichever league they decide to enter since it's possible for a new team to go Elite straight away. They'll have to be convinced promotion/relegation is the way forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 So take away the promotion and relegation...you would be ok with the other proposed plans? If you look it another way...isn't it madness that a team/club sport like speedway, can't run two leagues with promotion and relegation? You may as well make the whole sport just Individual events...which tbh...I can see it eventually ending up like that. It seems so many want change...but when they try for the better...people find a million reasons not too. Catch 22. Who said it's for the better ? it's one saying people we need change and another to change to something that is worst ...as I said because of budgets racenights etc it will never work in the uk ...your have teams losing to stay in the same division or lose to drop down one ..in pl football etc the rewards are massive to be there in speedway teams sometimes are better off where they are . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthegearbutnaeidea Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Where has it been said that there will be no fixed EL race-night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 VARIETY of opponents from season to season, maintains interest for most teams throughout the season at the top and the bottom. More pluses than minuses. The theory is all very fine, but you've been in the sport long enough to know the reality. There are not enough teams that want to be in the top league, so promotion and relegation is completely superfluous, not to mention detrimental to the viability of an economically marginal sport. Unless there are dramatic reductions in cost at the top level, not to mention more equalisation in terms of standard, then history is just going to repeat itself. I'd also be quite interested to know what computer program the proposed heat formula has been run through 'at least 100 times'. Not sure what it's supposed to prove anyway - it would be pretty easy to just look the heat formula and see if it's any good. Everyone seems to agree that Poland and Sweden are the two countries where speedway is more popular. Both of their league structures support promotion and relegation so why should it be insurmountable here? Relatively more money, and until recently, more teams wanting to be in the top flight than places. Of course, the Swedish Elite League has had to be reduced in size in recent times, and the Allsvenskan is down to six teams as well. Poland has also had to revert to a two league structure, with a quite farcical arrangement where two teams don't ride away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) The theory is all very fine, but you've been in the sport long enough to know the reality. There are not enough teams that want to be in the top league, so promotion and relegation is completely superfluous, not to mention detrimental to the viability of an economically marginal sport. Unless there are dramatic reductions in cost at the top level, not to mention more equalisation in terms of standard, then history is just going to repeat itself. I'd also be quite interested to know what computer program the proposed heat formula has been run through 'at least 100 times'. Not sure what it's supposed to prove anyway - it would be pretty easy to just look the heat formula and see if it's any good. Relatively more money, and until recently, more teams wanting to be in the top flight than places. Of course, the Swedish Elite League has had to be reduced in size in recent times, and the Allsvenskan is down to six teams as well. Poland has also had to revert to a two league structure, with a quite farcical arrangement where two teams don't ride away. ACTUALLY probably far more than you think as the gap has narrowed. Also some of the EL teams would be happy from a financial point of view to dispense with their high earners. Edited June 17, 2016 by PHILIPRISING 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Who said it's for the better ? it's one saying people we need change and another to change to something that is worst ...as I said because of budgets racenights etc it will never work in the uk ...your have teams losing to stay in the same division or lose to drop down one ..in pl football etc the rewards are massive to be there in speedway teams sometimes are better off where they are . The reason I say it's for the better...is because all the Promotors are involved in the process. If they didn't want 'change' then they would stay as it is. The fact they are approaching this, shows that they are open to change...and would only do so, to make things better. You are looking at budgets and race nights now...perhaps this is also being looked at. Perhaps the clubs are seeing that they need to cut their cloth to suit and will budget without Top riders competing in our leagues. I'd be all for it. I don't see the point of only having just a handful of top riders competing here. I'd rather see Premier league standard across the board, than a handful of GP riders that can't be arsed and see Poland, Sweden and the GP's as their main concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Also some of the EL teams would be happy from a financial point of view to dispense with their high earners. So it's an excuse for another cost-cutting exercise (which probably needs to happen), but what about the likes of Poole who seem determined to win at all costs every year? I'm also not sure it's necessary to have promotion and relegation to encourage teams to move up to the 'not-so-elite' league. Just create the conditions and incentives for teams to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damosuzuki Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 I suppose the concern would be that the top division ends up with a top 3 or four who can afford GP level heatleaders and they win it every year. Then the top league really would be unattractive because your team would just be fighting relegation rather than a title race. Dunno. If they make any change they need to make sure they have the loopholes covered or Matt Ford will run rings round them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Doesn't seem much point in speedway.If a team wants to move up they can and if a team wants to move down they can.We have had a number of examples recently.The trouble with having it in the rules is in forcing a team up that doesn't want to move up or forcing a team down that is financially ok in the top league,but might get into trouble in the lower. Even in German football teams lower down decline to move up because of the costs.Just had the case recently that in my regional league it ended up being the team who finished in 6th place that went into the play-offs as all the teams above them declined...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 If that's the case, why are all the promotors going to the trials and giving feedback? There's nothing wrong with trying to work out an acceptable match format that addresses the problems and complaints about the current one, although there are very limited options with 6 rider teams. However, it's just tinkering like many other times in the past unless the other aspects such as value for money, riders coming-and-going and the general presentation are not addressed. Yes, it would be good to get to a situation where the leagues are approximately equal sized, or even better with more teams than now, but we're a long way from needing promotion and relegation in the sport at the moment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) I'd rather see Premier league standard across the board, than a handful of GP riders that can't be arsed and see Poland, Sweden and the GP's as their main concern. Sadly looking at the crowds in the Pl is does look like the public do not feel the same ....as I said many, many times every idea that uk speedway comes up with always means that the crowd will take about drop ..it's been the same mistake they have been doing for the last 20 years . Who are these GP riders who can't be arsed ? what fans at what clubs are moaning about AJ ,Doyle ,Puk ,Fast Fred ,Harris etc about lack of effort ? nothing worst than just saying things like that without little thought Edited June 17, 2016 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 So it's an excuse for another cost-cutting exercise (which probably needs to happen), but what about the likes of Poole who seem determined to win at all costs every year? Just on that point, Matt Ford has stated that he wants his track to run more league meeting. He believes more is needed not less & is fully aware that he may not see the GP guys no longer. For once, the promoters are trying to look at what's best for British Speedway as a whole and the majority seem to be agreeing more fixtures, 6 man teams & possibly lose the higher earners is the way forward. The promoters have stated this will be trialled in front of fans to before being rubber stamped The only issue I see going forward is the fact this could stifle British riders futures. If Premier League standard is the aim, what does that do for the younger riders i.e. Robert Lambert's etc who by 2018 should be past that standard. Are these guys going to have to give up British Speedway ala Tai Woffinden to better themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Just on that point, Matt Ford has stated that he wants his track to run more league meeting. He believes more is needed not less & is fully aware that he may not see the GP guys no longer. I thought a few years back he was in the less meetings camp and stated he lost money every time he opened the gates?Or was that someone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 There's nothing wrong with trying to work out an acceptable match format that addresses the problems and complaints about the current one, although there are very limited options with 6 rider teams. However, it's just tinkering like many other times in the past unless the other aspects such as value for money, riders coming-and-going and the general presentation are not addressed. Yes, it would be good to get to a situation where the leagues are approximately equal sized, or even better with more teams than now, but we're a long way from needing promotion and relegation in the sport at the moment. Agreed...Unfortunately it seems the forum is focusing purely on the idea of Promotion and Relegation. At least, in my eye's, the Promotors are trying to do something. I can see positives in other ideas that have been 'planned'. A few have come out recently and said they have made mistakes and things need to be rectified. So i'm all for seeing what they do. The fact they are going to have a trial meeting and ask fans their opinion, to me is also a good thing. Some of the questions being asked here, could also be raised then. Sadly looking at the crowds in the Pl is does look like the public do not feel the same ....as I said many, many times every idea that uk speedway comes up with always means that the crowd will take about drop ..it's been the same mistake they have been doing for the last 20 years . I agree...Promotion of the sport by some clubs could be improved. Interestingly I posted a race on a social media page yesterday. A friend commented on it, how good it was. I asked whether he's been to Speedway before. His reply...'Yes, when I was ten...I went to Swindon Robins and loved it'. I told him they still race. He found their Website. His response...quote...' Found it. Will check out the fixtures. Don't seem to be milking the visuals. What a shame. That would really sell it.' I looked...he's right...great if you are a fan and just want to read info...but are Club websites 'Selling' the sport to any newcomer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Just on that point, Matt Ford has stated that he wants his track to run more league meeting. He believes more is needed not less & is fully aware that he may not see the GP guys no longer. For once, the promoters are trying to look at what's best for British Speedway as a whole and the majority seem to be agreeing more fixtures, 6 man teams & possibly lose the higher earners is the way forward. The promoters have stated this will be trialled in front of fans to before being rubber stamped The only issue I see going forward is the fact this could stifle British riders futures. If Premier League standard is the aim, what does that do for the younger riders i.e. Robert Lambert's etc who by 2018 should be past that standard. Are these guys going to have to give up British Speedway ala Tai Woffinden to better themselves. 'Better themselves' and actually make a living. For a current double up rider this would actually mean less racing and the probable need to do an off track job, which might create availability problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 I thought a few years back he was in the less meetings camp and stated he lost money every time he opened the gates?Or was that someone else? Indeed, and what about all the clamouring for less meetings so we 'can bring the top boys back'? Is reality finally hitting home? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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