ColinMills Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 1 ...2 nights racing a week, promotion/relegation, no guest riders, all of a sudden I feel optimistic...could this feeling be the start of a upturn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 All you do is run both leagues on PL converted averages. Season 1 the PL has a 45 point limit and the EL 55. The following season you have points limit of 42 in both leagues. The conversion rate would be about 0.9. You wouldn't actually have a "stronger" league then, 10% isn't a lot but allows some improvement when you move up but more realistically when moving up a league you'd just be able to keep last years league winning team if you wanted. Same for the team dropping down. It would also make an inter-league KOC viable. The only issue I see is that at the moment the average EL clubs has what, 3 double uppers? 2 draft rider and 1 other. That means of the 8 EL teams they will have to find 3 rider riders eachs, thats 24 new riders. That either 30 new NL riders (not already riding EL or PL) or 30 new foreigners (by the time some riders retire/quit). I just don't see where they're going to come from! 6 man teams ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 It has all been suggested and even trialled before but most lower clubs didn't want to go up because it would cost more and most upper clubs didn't want to go down and probably lose some of their riders and some of their fans, so it all fell through. The reason MOST clubs are in their current leagues is down to cost, obviously a couple of premier league clubs could afford to move up, but they don't seem to want to. It all depends on the costs of the higher division. Somehow I suspect they will not be the same as the present Elite League otherwise the PL clubs would have rejected this scheme out of hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 6 man teams ? D'oh! Of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Would Berwick still be sh!te like every year though?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 All you do is run both leagues on PL converted averages. Season 1 the PL has a 45 point limit and the EL 55. The following season you have points limit of 42 in both leagues. The conversion rate would be about 0.9. You wouldn't actually have a "stronger" league then, 10% isn't a lot but allows some improvement when you move up but more realistically when moving up a league you'd just be able to keep last years league winning team if you wanted. Same for the team dropping down. It would also make an inter-league KOC viable. The only issue I see is that at the moment the average EL clubs has what, 3 double uppers? 2 draft rider and 1 other. That means of the 8 EL teams they will have to find 3 rider riders eachs, thats 24 new riders. That either 30 new NL riders (not already riding EL or PL) or 30 new foreigners (by the time some riders retire/quit). I just don't see where they're going to come from! This is something that crossed my mind...are we going to have doubling up still? Between EL and PL with 12 teams in each...that's 144 riders needed. I'm guessing you are going to get at least 3 to 4 riders from many PL teams moving up to teams in the EL...and heat leaders from the NL riding at No. 6 for PL sides. It is one of the things that annoys me...and I presume many fans...but I guess riders need to race and make a living. Not enough fixtures to ride for just one team. As Rosco recently said...the 'Elite' league...is just a name, that doesn't reflect the quality in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthegearbutnaeidea Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Would Berwick still be sh!te like every year though?? OI leave it out yeah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 It didn't work before and won't work again whilst there are insufficient teams wanting to race at the top level. Promotion and relegation is only viable when more teams want to race in a league than there are available places. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 It didn't work before and won't work again whilst there are insufficient teams wanting to race at the top level. Promotion and relegation is only viable when more teams want to race in a league than there are available places. BUT if the gap between the two leagues becomes barely discernible then that argument won't apply. At the very least it will mean the paying public will see different teams each year. We have all moaned and moaned about the current state of affairs but serious efforts are being made to try and make some significant changes and surely we should applaud that. I also understand that the task of re-writing the rulebook is being tasked to a number of senior referees, as close to an independent body as we are likely to get. One can only hope that the promoters both individually and collectively accept what they come up with. There cannot be anyone on either side of the fence who doesn't recognise that British speedway desperately requires a revamp and this may just be the first step. Of course, theory and reality are not always the same thing which is why the trials taking place are so important. Too often in the recent past an unworkable rule is simply amended and supplemented by another rather than starting from scratch. There is no magic wand that will solve all the ills at a stroke. But let's try and be positive that a new era might be forthcoming. All we will require then is someone to sort out the weather. Have we ever had so many postponements at this time of the year? No doubt someone out there will have the answer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 It didn't work before and won't work again whilst there are insufficient teams wanting to race at the top level. Promotion and relegation is only viable when more teams want to race in a league than there are available places. If that's the case, why are all the promotors going to the trials and giving feedback? Why are they going to the next trial as well? If promotors don't wish their team to go up...then why not say now, and stop wasting time and energy and money? Perhaps the new system will be tried before they introduce Promotion and relegation. Or as Phillip said above...the Leagues made more in conjunction with one another? Lets face it...it's not that far off now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Does this mean the concept of limiting the top flight to one or two race nights is gone? So we are envisaging a model with even weaker top flight teams? Not passing judgment, just wanting to understand the model being worked towards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Quite a number of the listed tracks actually have their future in doubt for a variety of reasons, they need to be able to guarantee being able to compete, otherwise the balance of the two divisions could be wrecked. What happens to all the doubling-up riders? If they are confined to one division (it'll be a farce if they're not), then many will need off-track jobs and that in itself presents problems. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 not being negative but if the leagues become the same standard whats the point in promotion and relegation anyway. surely promotion means you move up to a higher level. changes are needed but this has not worked in the past. then again lets see what cunning plan the powers that be come up with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 not being negative but if the leagues become the same standard whats the point in promotion and relegation anyway. surely promotion means you move up to a higher level. changes are needed but this has not worked in the past. then again lets see what cunning plan the powers that be come up with VARIETY of opponents from season to season, maintains interest for most teams throughout the season at the top and the bottom. More pluses than minuses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 The key to making a promotion/relegation system work is that the rewards gained from promotion outweigh the cost and equally that relegation does not threaten the viability of a track. There needs to, and inevitably would be a difference in standards between the two divisions but in no way as great as the present divide. Yes the system's failed before but that's not to say it's impossible, even in speedway. The real risk is for the top league to stay at its present (relative) strength with a handful of PL tracks brought in to make up the numbers like Leicester this year, with D1 tracks refusing to go down and D2 sides refusing to go up. After a few years the risk is that we would have the same situation as today, just with the D1/EL having got themselves a few extra tracks. There is a heck of a difference between having a 20-24 team league of relatively even strength divided into two divisions and having two distinct leagues of still substantially differing strengths. There has to be a corporate will to compromise to make this succeed. Have promoters finally been forced to the point where they are finally able to take that brave step? I do hope so. Many talk about the sport pulling together to make it work, well if this isn't a sign of that finally happening what is? As I said before though if this is to work the supporters must also play their part by focussing on the sport not the names and foolishly believing that there is a magic wand for their team to remain unchanged, just others will 'catch up'. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 The key to making a promotion/relegation system work is that the rewards gained from promotion outweigh the cost and equally that relegation does not threaten the viability of a track. There needs to, and inevitably would be a difference in standards between the two divisions but in no way as great as the present divide. Yes the system's failed before but that's not to say it's impossible, even in speedway. The real risk is for the top league to stay at its present (relative) strength with a handful of PL tracks brought in to make up the numbers like Leicester this year, with D1 tracks refusing to go down and D2 sides refusing to go up. After a few years the risk is that we would have the same situation as today, just with the D1/EL having got themselves a few extra tracks. There is a heck of a difference between having a 20-24 team league of relatively even strength divided into two divisions and having two distinct leagues of still substantially differing strengths. There has to be a corporate will to compromise to make this succeed. Have promoters finally been forced to the point where they are finally able to take that brave step? I do hope so. Many talk about the sport pulling together to make it work, well if this isn't a sign of that finally happening what is? As I said before though if this is to work the supporters must also play their part by focussing on the sport not the names and foolishly believing that there is a magic wand for their team to remain unchanged, just others will 'catch up'. And this is where Speedway again is a farce...how do you as a club sign up to something then refuse to go up or down? What other sport would allow this? If you are signed up and contracted to run in a formulated league system....then you should abide by it. If not...then do one. If it is because of costs...then here in lies the problem. Surely some sort of Financial fair play rules should be brought in, like they do in other sports. Where by you are only allowed to spend in wages a percentage of your total income. If Owners want to put into the club their own money towards other running costs then fine...but wages should reflect the incoming gate receipts imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 So no 'top' riders in the senior league with more fixtures and without a fixed one/two night racing calendar?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Normal unworkable madness ...where do you start with the million reasons why this could never work . I reckon you would end teams trying to lose on purpose to stay up and go down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 CERTAINLY the EL clubs are desperate for more fixtures. Take a look at your own club Skidder1 (and leaving aside for a moment the appalling weather) ... scarce home fixtures during the summer is a nonsense. Need to get back to where tracks can run with some consistency so that fans know where they stand. Does this mean the concept of limiting the top flight to one or two race nights is gone? So we are envisaging a model with even weaker top flight teams?Not passing judgment, just wanting to understand the model being worked towards. The strength of top flight teams at the moment seems to be judged by their reserves rather than their No 1. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 CERTAINLY the EL clubs are desperate for more fixtures. Are they ? that's why they got rid of ko etc as most thought there were two many . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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