A Work Of Fiction

[Bear_Bottom]

https://www.speedwayfiction.co.uk/samedifference.html

[SCB]

On of the best thing speedway has done in the last 10 years is the point scoring system. Its a shame you always get 3 for a win now as the 2 for a win, 3 for a bigger win was better. It makes 90% of heat 15's mean something.

[RobMcCaffery]

On of the best thing speedway has done in the last 10 years is the point scoring system. Its a shame you always get 3 for a win now as the 2 for a win, 3 for a bigger win was better. It makes 90% of heat 15's mean something.

On the other side, a prominent promoter once said that it was damaging his business that a home win of six or under sent his customers home feeling that the team had failed, which of course they technically had, He wanted a home win to be a win, with nothing taken away, and you can see his point from a business angle. "Well we won but it wasn't by enough" might work for a cup tie but not a league match.

 

That's the problem with even logical theory - it then has to live in an illogical world.

 

As for others complaining the current system's too complex - I'd recommend they keep away from all speedway statistics and league tables if that is the case - just think of winning or losing and forget the ,match points.

 

I've seen so many instances now where a team is even a dozen points behind with two to go but still has a chance to get something out of the match. Anything that keeps interest in a match going longer is worth having to count up to six!

[BWitcher]

Completely agree that the points system is one of the best things the sport has brought in.

 

I've heard the same story regarding the 2pts, 3pts home issue and to be honest, its just promoters looking for excuses instead of embracing the real reasons why crowds are down.

 

Generally it will be some numpty who doesn't understand having a whinge... but they are the type who are there every week anyway.

 

Folks not coming if the team is losing every week I can understand, but I really can't see many, if any at all not coming because their team only got 2pts instead of 3 in a match they won.

Edited June 15, 2016 by BWitcher

[foamfence]

It all adds to the 'circus side show' image that a good number of the public have. Tart it up anyway you like but it just gives the impression of last knockings.

[BWitcher]

It all adds to the 'circus side show' image that a good number of the public have. Tart it up anyway you like but it just gives the impression of last knockings.

 

No it doesn't.

 

Does Rugby have a 'circus side show' image?

 

How about cricket?

 

Didn't think so.

 

Next we'll hear the story of how when I told my mate the scoring system he burst out laughing.

[SCB]

That's the problem with even logical theory - it then has to live in an illogical world.

And a World with human emotion. As someone who now works on game shows I can tell you this plays a huge part in how they work! Something might not make a different but you can perceive it will or vice-versa. It's the old TS vs new TR "fair" argument again!

[RobMcCaffery]

It all adds to the 'circus side show' image that a good number of the public have. Tart it up anyway you like but it just gives the impression of last knockings.

On that basis many sports are 'circuses' - they award bonus points in Rugby Union for example. It's a graded points system not the real problem, the tactical ride.

 

If you want to view a sport as a 'circus' you can always find something to justify it.

And a World with human emotion. As someone who now works on game shows I can tell you this plays a huge part in how they work! Something might not make a different but you can perceive it will or vice-versa. It's the old TS vs new TR "fair" argument again!

Which again is a question of logic. You either allow a substitution of an off-form rider with one doing better, like substitutions or replacements in other sports, albeit for one race rather than the rest of a match, and let them earn or you simply allow someone to be gifted double points.

[BWitcher]

On that basis many sports are 'circuses' - they award bonus points in Rugby Union for example. It's a graded points system not the real problem, the tactical ride.

 

If you want to view a sport as a 'circus' you can always find something to justify it.

Which again is a question of logic. You either allow a substitution of an off-form rider with one doing better, like substitutions or replacements in other sports, albeit for one race rather than the rest of a match, and let them earn or you simply allow someone to be gifted double points.

 

I take your point, but it isn't like substitutes in other sports at all, mainly as only the losing team can do it and the difference is quite vast. You could say it's a bit like in a cricket match a side struggling 7 or 8 wickets down and they can then bring in their best batsmen again instead of the no 9.

 

Also, riders aren't simply 'gifted' double pts, they have to beat riders to get them.. but as I said, I understand where you're coming from.

 

As has been said many times before, in terms of 'fairness' the current tactical system is the fairest the sport has had.

 

Like many others though, I do prefer the old tac subs..

Edited June 15, 2016 by BWitcher

[E I Addio]

On of the best thing speedway has done in the last 10 years is the point scoring system. Its a shame you always get 3 for a win now as the 2 for a win, 3 for a bigger win was better. It makes 90% of heat 15's mean something.

I basically agree with that but it's the T/R as usual,that threw a spanner in the works. At the time we had the 3,2 etc arrangement we also had provision for two T/R,s all or most of the way through. That meant that team with a strong top two but a weak tail could gain an extra six points by way of T/R's which made it seem like the home team won on the track and lost on the rule book.

 

I know all the arguments on the maths but the fact remains that a T/R is still perceived by many as an unfair advantage, it's more trouble than it's worth.Get rid of the T/R and go back to the old style 3,2,1,0 scoring system and you have, in my view at least a system as good as you can realistically get.

 

I wouldn't object to one T/S ride per meeting but realistically they are never coming back (especially not under the present EL format) so shouldn't really feature in the discussion

Edited June 15, 2016 by E I Addio

[ch958]

 

I take your point, but it isn't like substitutes in other sports at all, mainly as only the losing team can do it and the difference is quite vast. You could say it's a bit like in a cricket match a side struggling 7 or 8 wickets down and they can then bring in their best batsmen again instead of the no 9.

 

Also, riders aren't simply 'gifted' double pts, they have to beat riders to get them.. but as I said, I understand where you're coming from.

 

As has been said many times before, in terms of 'fairness' the current tactical system is the fairest the sport has had.

 

Like many others though, I do prefer the old tac subs..

 

"I take your point", " I understand where you're coming from"

 

bloody hell Bwitcher have you found Jesus!!

[foamfence]

 

No it doesn't.

 

Does Rugby have a 'circus side show' image?

 

How about cricket?

 

Didn't think so.

 

Next we'll hear the story of how when I told my mate the scoring system he burst out laughing.

We aren't discussing Rugby or Cricket and I did say "adds to" not 'creates.'

[BWitcher]

We aren't discussing Rugby or Cricket and I did say "adds to" not 'creates.'

 

We are discussing a pts system.

 

Kindly explain why the pts system used in speedway 'adds to' a circus side show image?

 

And why pts systems in other sports are deemed acceptable?

[RobMcCaffery]

I wouldn't object to one T/S ride per meeting but realistically they are never coming back (especially not under the present EL format) so shouldn't really feature in the discussion

Why not? The EL format's been fundamentally corrupted by promoting EDRs into the team on false averages thus negating the protection.

 

As for the PL and NL why can't the T/S return? It worked superbly in this country for decades and still works equally well in Poland and Sweden so why is there the problem in Britain? Is it a case of rider cost?

Edited June 15, 2016 by rmc

[crescent girl]

Is it a case of rider cost?

 

Yes.

[ColinMills]

has anyone noticed if the league outcome would be any different under previous league scoring system?

[JCookie]

has anyone noticed if the league outcome would be any different under previous league scoring system?

Or if anyone would actually care?

[daveallan81]

SCB, on 15 Jun 2016 - 12:34 PM, said:

On of the best thing speedway has done in the last 10 years is the point scoring system. Its a shame you always get 3 for a win now as the 2 for a win, 3 for a bigger win was better. It makes 90% of heat 15's mean something.

 

90%, no. 50%, yes.

 

2015 Elite League: 108 matches

Matches decided by heat 15: 51 (47.22%)

Last-heat deciders: 20 (18.52%)

Matches where home team has already lost and is attempting to stop away team getting full points: 10 (9.26%)

Matches where home team has already won and is attempting to stop away team getting a point: 27 (25.00%)

 

2015 Premier League: 151 matches

Matches decided by heat 15: 79 (52.32%)

Last-heat deciders: 32 (21.19%)

Matches where home team has already lost etc: 16 (10.60%)

Matches where home team has already won etc: 24 (15.89%)

 

2015 Combined: 259 matches

Matches decided by heat 15: 130 (50.19%)

Last-heat deciders: 52 (20.08%)

Matches where home team has already lost etc: 26 (10.04%)

Matches where home team has already won etc: 51 (19.61%)

 

I've gone back to 1978 for a comparison of sorts:

 

British League: 105 LHD from 342 matches (30.70%)

National League: 93 LHD from 379 matches (24.54%)

69.30% of BL and 75.46% of NL matches were decided by heat 12.

[ColinMills]

Or if anyone would actually care?

my point was, the best team will win the league, no matter how often you freely give losing teams a point

[BWitcher]

Why not? The EL format's been fundamentally corrupted by promoting EDRs into the team on false averages thus negating the protection.

 

As for the PL and NL why can't the T/S return? It worked superbly in this country for decades and still works equally well in Poland and Sweden so why is there the problem in Britain? Is it a case of rider cost?

 

It is to do with cost, but I would question how it works 'perfectly well'.

 

Several times this season clubs have been winning all the way through only for big guns such as Woffinden and Zmarzlik, or Hancock and Pawlicki to then team up in several races at the end and change the match completely.

 

That was and still is one of the biggest flaws of that system.