Team Gb For World Cup

[chris4gillian]

We might well not have had such a big score from Tai and that would have evened things out if another rider had scored a few more points. We need to look to the future and Chris and Scott aint it, yes I am aware of Cookies age but he's still on the up.

 

You think? I'd personally say he's plateaued at his level.

[The White Knight]

 

 

It wasn’t learned on the basis of one meeting re Cook rather that meeting being a culmination of a number of meetings at the top level pieced together now. Cook was really poor other than one ride, the result of the team (Woffinden) doesn’t gleam over that for me personally.

 

It really wouldn’t have taken an exceptionally good side to beat Poland, a team with Craig Cook, Danny King and Lambert scoring 3 nearly done it.

 

Fair play to King and Cook in particular for their medals and to some of what I am saying might sound overly harsh to some, but they neither performed above standard on the night nor offered any kind of performance that makes me think either should be selected again.

 

To not look at that meeting and think what might have been is slightly off centre thinking for me.

Then who should be?

 

Genuine question.

[sparkafag]

Then who should be?

 

Genuine question.

 

 

If it is on the basis that the side is being picked for the future then pick riders who are actually for the future, as neither King nor Cook are and they showed that on Saturday. I don’t think that’s the structure with which the side was picked though, I think it was picked with the idea of getting the best performance possible, some might say that second was that, but in terms of how the actual meeting played out IMO more than second was there for Team GB

 

To go back to what I originally said though, I am saying that if 3 riders score 13 points between them then it is questionable the side picked was spot on as that’s a pretty poor return from 3 riders, and thus not actually spot on and it isn't entirely out of the question to say AN other, eg Harris or Nicholls might have (probably would have) scored more than 3 or 5 respectively.

 

Woffinden banging in the points he did (and will likely continue to do) is like taking shots at an open goal. It is likely he will score serious points which will see Team GB continue to perform above very low expectations (as shown by the reaction to Saturday), either actually properly go young, or properly go balls in with the idea of winning the thing, Saturday to me seemed like a half way house and the way the meeting played out probably confirmed that, you are probably never going to win a World Cup with King or Cook in the side, Harris or even Nicholls on a good night might have gotten the side even closer IMO, or "young riders" might have actually had the chance to learn, but again, aunty, uncle, balls, chicken, egg.

Edited August 1, 2016 by The Mockingjay

[The White Knight]

 

 

If it is on the basis that the side is being picked for the future then pick riders who are actually for the future, as neither King nor Cook are and they showed that on Saturday. I don’t think that’s the structure with which the side was picked though, I think it was picked with the idea of getting the best performance possible, some might say that was second. I am saying that if 3 riders score 13 points between them then it is questionable the side picked was spot on as that’s a pretty poor return from 3 riders, and thus not actually spot on and it isn't entirely out of the question to say AN other, eg Harris or Nicholls might have (probably would have) scored more than 3 or 5 respectively.

 

Woffinden banging in the points he did (and will likely continue to do) is like taking shots at an open goal. It is likely he will score serious points which will see Team GB continue to perform above very low expectations (as shown by the reaction to Saturday), either actually properly go young, or properly go balls in with the idea of winning the thing, Saturday to me seemed like a half way house and the way the meeting played out probably confirmed that.

Thanks for your considered reply.

[foamfence]

 

 

It wasn’t learned on the basis of one meeting re Cook rather that meeting being a culmination of a number of meetings at the top level pieced together now. Cook was really poor other than one ride, the result of the team (Woffinden) doesn’t gleam over that for me personally.

 

It really wouldn’t have taken an exceptionally good side to beat Poland, a team with Craig Cook, Danny King and Lambert scoring 3 nearly done it.

 

Fair play to King and Cook in particular for their medals and to some of what I am saying might sound overly harsh to some, but they neither performed above standard on the night nor offered any kind of performance that makes me think either should be selected again.

 

To not look at that meeting and think what might have been is slightly off centre thinking for me.

And that is exactly what you've done.

Edited August 1, 2016 by foamfence

[sparkafag]

I'm trying to work out what team you would have selected.

 

In this post you are telling us Cook isn't good enough (1 less than Lindback, only 2 less than Doyle!) but in another post you suggested Harris could have scored more than Lambert. You've even suggested we could have won with a different team, and all that with the benefit of hindsight!

 

I think Rossiter did get the team selection right, spoke to him before the meeting (and he also did a selfie as well!)

 

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13680227_10208455396174460_740624101157421841_o.jpg

 

he could have picked Harris on his career achievements but had he had only scored 5 he would have been heavily criticised, and the moaning on here would have been off the scale, instead of just you.

 

Anyway, its easy to be wise after the event (not that you have lol!) but apart from the Aussies being caught out by the completely different track this was as close as it gets.

 

 

 

Yes, it’s completely daft to say isn't, it is genuinely mental to say - had other riders been picked who likely would have scored more than 3 or 5 points Britain would have scored more points, what a mental thought process….

 

I would have went with Harris over Cook personally, as there still isn’t the body of work to suggest Cook is better than Harris and Saturday confirmed that, as you kind of said in your post by saying “had Harris scored 5 people would have moaned”, you know why….because if he had scored 5 it would have been a poor score and he would have underperformed which is the exact thing I am saying re Cook, the score doesn't change as a poor score regardless of who scored it, if the best that was expected from Cook (and King) was 5, that alone is confirmation they should not have been picked.

 

Cook scoring slightly more/less than Doyle and Lindback speaks of their failings rather than his achievements.

 

And yes, I also think Harris would have scored more than 3, so you could argue the case and point for also picking him over Lambert (rather than just solely Cook) and there is a decent body of evidence to validate it

 

Sure hindsight is a thing, but so is an actual speedway meeting where riders score points and you can say, poor score, could have done better than 3 or 5 points, it’s a really poor score for a World Cup Final.

Edited August 1, 2016 by The Mockingjay

[BWitcher]

It's all very well and good looking at the scores if the individual GB riders and saying so and so only scored 3, so and so could have scored better.

 

What you are totally failing to take into account is the opposition. Who exactly would they have beaten to score these extra pts?

 

As Fred Flange says, Cook scored 1 less than Lindback, 2 less than Doyle.

[sparkafag]

Looking at it on a race by race basis, if Harris had replaced Lambert do I think it is out of the question to say Harris could have beat the likes of Holder, AJ, Ljung, or Doyle no.

 

If instead of Cook could he have beat riders like again Ljung, Masters, Holder – again, probably, wouldn’t have put it past Nicholls either on a good night.

 

Again though, just to utterly reiterate and stress what I have said, there is an element of chicken egg.

 

The whole basis of what I am saying is in relation to the “spot on” point, is that score the maxed out points Team GB could have scored with correct selections?

 

When riders do literally score 3 and 5 that is what they scored on track so has to be taken into account

 

Is that the most riders in those positions could have scored, and should have scored? no, no it isn’t IMO….if folks think that’s as good as it could have got fair play.

Edited August 1, 2016 by The Mockingjay

[waiheke1]

On current ability, you wouldn't have expected cook king or lambert (or Harris or Nicholls) to beat any if the poles. Masters and Josh g probably, but not holder or Doyle. Of the swede perhaps ljung. So anything above 3 or 4 apiece is better than you would expect. Which is why before hand I said 5 apiece would be a good effort, and I stand by that.

[speedibee]

Sad to say .Scott threw away his principles for a chance of 1 last day in the sun , Harris needs to put being smited behind him now and forget all about team GB , those of us who are not Harris knockers know what he's capable of ,and he needs to concentrate on his personal future .

[sparkafag]

On current ability, you wouldn't have expected cook king or lambert (or Harris or Nicholls) to beat any if the poles. Masters and Josh g probably, but not holder or Doyle. Of the swede perhaps ljung. So anything above 3 or 4 apiece is better than you would expect. Which is why before hand I said 5 apiece would be a good effort, and I stand by that.

 

And, that IMO, is why neither King nor Cook should have been near the team - more so when you take into account Josh G was a late replacement. Harris on the other hand has beaten Holder and Doyle a few times already in the GP this season even with questionable performance levels.

Edited August 1, 2016 by The Mockingjay

[waiheke1]

And yet king comfortably outscored Harris at Cardiff and the British final.

There was an argument for Harris to be included sure, but to come here after the event and say Harris should have been in...

Did you think gb would win? Did tai score more than you expected? Were you surprised the rest scored "only" 13?

[sparkafag]

And yet king comfortably outscored Harris at Cardiff and the British final.

There was an argument for Harris to be included sure, but to come here after the event and say Harris should have been in...

Did you think gb would win? Did tai score more than you expected? Were you surprised the rest scored "only" 13?

 

I thought the same before the event re Harris/King and Cook in all honesty, there is a pretty decent variance re the body of work in all 3 riders careers even taking into account form this season (which stills sees Harris outperforming both) that suggests Harris scores more points in more meetings and wins more big races than either probably ever will, a case and point being a sum of 5 points in a World Cup Final is probably as good as it will ever get for Cook.

 

I didn’t think it was out of the question that Woffinden, a two time World Champion would turn in a pretty decent score – more than I expected, yes, dictated the selection of the other 3? A situation that should have been capitalised on with the selection of other riders? Yes IMO, a situation that would have seen Team GB finish lower down the standings if it hadn’t been for his score, again yes, the core of the performance was always going to be, and was dictated by what Woffinden done.

 

Re The other 3 only scoring 3, I probably did expect more than 13 from 3 Team GB riders, yes, pre throwing in Josh G, Masters and Ljung who can throw in the odd good ride is the kind of rider Team GB should be feeling they can take decent points from IMO

 

Did I think they would win before the meeting, no, do I think post meeting the way it turned out and with a Harris on form they could have won/went pretty close, yes, hence the feeling it wasn't quite spot on.

Edited August 1, 2016 by The Mockingjay

[The White Knight]

I was very pleased we finished second.

 

BUT - we only finished second because we finished in front of Sweden after using the bloody Joker - Sweden couldn't use theirs. So once again this Joker/Double Points System has unfairly affected the Result.

 

It still doesn't sit right with me.

[sparkafag]

It is when there is nothing to suggest picking someone else would have achieved a better score?

 

Had Harris been picked and scored 5 or even 'shown failings' and only scored 7 nobody would have moaned at Harris but rossiter would have got it in the neck from the 'I told you so brigade', there might have even been someone daft enough to say 'Britain could have won that if other choices had been taken.'

 

Why so negative? Doyle and Lindback wern't nearly as bad as Cook and King, Cook and King were nearly as good Dolye and Ljndback. If someone had said they be almost as good as each other before the meeting we would have been very happy.

 

Anyway, I've worked out your team, Woofinden, Harris, King and err.... Harris.

 

I don't think you've thought it through to be fair, lol!

 

 

I have literally said a few times I can see the chicken/egg nature of what I am saying, I don’t think I can be much clearer. I also though don’t think it is out of the question Harris could have outperformed a score of 3 or 5 based on what he has achieved previously in his speedway career, it is possible to think both they things..

 

And if they had said “Britain could have won” on the basis of a rider scoring 5 points they would have had a pretty valid point irrespective of who the rider was…..

 

I don’t think it is negative to state that re the Cook/Doyle/Lindback dynamic, they (Doyle and Linbback) had poor meetings, it is only stating the obvious to say that, their underperformance doesn’t add to another rider not performing and there poor performances weren’t truly taken advantage off to the extent they should have been IMO, well not by anyone other than Woffinden.

 

Again, I have literally said I would have picked Harris over Cook, I couldn’t make that much clearer (lol – which doesn’t actually make what I just said that funny)….

[BWitcher]

 

 

I have literally said a few times I can see the chicken/egg nature of what I am saying, I don’t think I can be much clearer. I also though don’t think it is out of the question Harris could have outperformed a score of 3 or 5 based on what he has achieved previously in his speedway career, it is possible to think both they things..

 

And if they had said “Britain could have won” on the basis of a rider scoring 5 points they would have had a pretty valid point irrespective of who the rider was…..

 

I don’t think it is negative to state that re the Cook/Doyle/Lindback dynamic, they (Doyle and Linbback) had poor meetings, it is only stating the obvious to say that, their underperformance doesn’t add to another rider not performing and there poor performances weren’t truly taken advantage off to the extent they should have been IMO, well not by anyone other than Woffinden.

 

Again, I have literally said I would have picked Harris over Cook, I couldn’t make that much clearer (lol – which doesn’t actually make what I just said that funny)….

 

It's also not out of the question that Harris would have been tailed off and scored very little given his previous efforts at the track.

 

We will never know, but with or without Harris in the team, silver medal is a good result and more than most expected.

[Fromafar]

It's only the format of the Competition that would give Team GB any chance of a victory in the next 5-10 years .i.e,Jokers and Tac. Subs rides.

[mdmc82]

 

And, that IMO, is why neither King nor Cook should have been near the team - more so when you take into account Josh G was a late replacement. Harris on the other hand has beaten Holder and Doyle a few times already in the GP this season even with questionable performance levels.

But yet our weak link in the SWC wasn't King or Cook who both had heat wins and 2nds. It was actually Lambert who came 3rd or last in all his rides. King had 2 less rides than him and still scored more and was flying. However the experience should hopefully help for future development.

 

1. Craig Cook 1, 0, 0, 3, 1 = 5

2. Tai Woffinden 3, 2, 3, 6^, 3, 2 = 19

3. Danny King T, 0, 2, 3 = 5

4. Robert Lambert 1, 1, 0, 1, 0 = 3

5. Adam Ellis

 

We got silver which is a huge achievement when you look at the strength of the final line up.

Edited August 1, 2016 by mdmc82

[Triple.H.]

I am not entirely sure Rosco did get it spot on I appreciate some will say a silver medal says otherwise but 13 points from 3 riders is a pretty poor contribution. The lowest of any second place team in recent memory, by a considerable distance.

 

It isnt that outlandish a statement to say Britain could have won that if other choices had been taken.

But it is Hypothetical.

Any team could have the best 4 riders in the world but it don't mean they'll win.

[sparkafag]

But it is Hypothetical.

Any team could have the best 4 riders in the world but it don't mean they'll win.

Obviously...

 

Increases there chances though. I see Woffinden felt it should have been gold as well though