Fundin Olsen Nielsen Would They Have All Won More World Title's If There Had Been A Gp Series Around.?

[Sidney the robin]

Probably not 1970-1980 though sid?

Mort must be close, in fact both Mortons ahead of Carter over that period?

Yes you are correct but overall he would be in a top ten a special talent.As "Norbold" said Aces1 that 1970/80 period was a special time for British Riders lucky i was there to see it.

[norbold]

As a historian, your post got me thinking about even further back, Sidney, to the 1950s and 60s.

So how about this for a Top 10 British from the 1950s: Peter Craven. Freddie Williams, Split Waterman, Brian Crutcher. Ken McKinlay. Arthur Forrest. Alan Hunt. Tommy Price. Cyril Roger. Eric Williams.

 

1960s: Nigel Boocock, Ken McKinlay, Peter Craven, Mike Broadbank(s), Eric Boocock, Ron How, David Younghusband, Martin Ashby, Trevor Hedge, Norman Hunter ?

[Sidney the robin]

As a historian, your post got me thinking about even further back, Sidney, to the 1950s and 60s.

So how about this for a Top 10 British from the 1950s: Peter Craven. Freddie Williams, Split Waterman, Brian Crutcher. Ken McKinlay. Arthur Forrest. Alan Hunt. Tommy Price. Cyril Roger. Eric Williams.

 

1960s: Nigel Boocock, Ken McKinlay, Peter Craven, Mike Broadbank(s), Eric Boocock, Ron How, David Younghusband, Martin Ashby, Trevor Hedge, Norman Hunter ?

That 50s group of riders look really special "Norbold" , looking at that group in the 60s the league structure changed when was it 1965.Did a lot of those riders have to really improve, from 65 onwards to get to that level i include Ray Wilson from 68 onwards in that as well.Did Ray have to comeback from a serious leg break? great rider Ray one of my favourites did hurt a bit when he beat Crash in 75 though.😀 Edited June 18, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[BL65]

As a historian, your post got me thinking about even further back, Sidney, to the 1950s and 60s.

 

So how about this for a Top 10 British from the 1950s: Peter Craven. Freddie Williams, Split Waterman, Brian Crutcher. Ken McKinlay. Arthur Forrest. Alan Hunt. Tommy Price. Cyril Roger. Eric Williams.

 

1960s: Nigel Boocock, Ken McKinlay, Peter Craven, Mike Broadbank(s), Eric Boocock, Ron How, David Younghusband, Martin Ashby, Trevor Hedge, Norman Hunter ?

Some riders were at, or near, their best for relatively short periods in the 1960s, such as Bob Andrews, Jimmy Gooch, Ray Wilson, Cyril Maidment, Dick Fisher, Brian Brett, whereas others were top riders in their teams for longer periods. My top ten, in order, would be Peter Craven, Ron How, Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock, Mike Broadbank, Eric Boocock, Terry Betts, Norman Hunter, Martin Ashby, Colin Pratt with Ray Wilson, Trevor Hedge, Roy Trigg and Dave Younghusband next in line.

[norbold]

Some riders were at, or near, their best for relatively short periods in the 1960s, such as Bob Andrews, Jimmy Gooch, Ray Wilson, Cyril Maidment, Dick Fisher, Brian Brett, whereas others were top riders in their teams for longer periods. My top ten, in order, would be Peter Craven, Ron How, Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock, Mike Broadbank, Eric Boocock, Terry Betts, Norman Hunter, Martin Ashby, Colin Pratt with Ray Wilson, Trevor Hedge, Roy Trigg and Dave Younghusband next in line.

All a matter of opinion of course and there is no right or wrong answer. However, the reason i would put Nigel Boocock and Ken McKinlay above Peter Craven for the 60s is because they were at the top throughout the whole decade. Of course, Peter was the better rider for the first four years, but sadly, was not to see out the decade.

 

I always find Bob Andrews a bit of an enigma in that he seemed to do much better in individual or pairs events than as a team rider. If it had just been on individual performances I would certainly have put him in my top 10, but his averages just did not seem to reflect his personal attainments.

[BL65]

All a matter of opinion of course and there is no right or wrong answer. However, the reason i would put Nigel Boocock and Ken McKinlay above Peter Craven for the 60s is because they were at the top throughout the whole decade. Of course, Peter was the better rider for the first four years, but sadly, was not to see out the decade.

 

I always find Bob Andrews a bit of an enigma in that he seemed to do much better in individual or pairs events than as a team rider. If it had just been on individual performances I would certainly have put him in my top 10, but his averages just did not seem to reflect his personal attainments.

Picking up on the comment about Bob Andrews, in league racing he was on a par with riders such as Nigel Boocock and Mike Broadbank in the early 1960s, but in 1964 his league average was well down. This may have reflected his discontent at Wimbledon, with that being the year of his abortive attempt to move to Provincial League Wolverhampton. The league averages for the National League for 1960 to 1964, as shown on the Speedway Researcher site, give an indication of the top performing British riders at that time, with perhaps a few surprises.

 

1960 - 1 Peter Craven 10.75, 2 Ken McKinlay 9.98, 3 Ron How 9.36, 4 Eric Williams 9.33, 5 Ronnie Genz 8.41, 6 Mike Broadbank 8.33, 7 Nigel Boocock 8.31, 8 Bob Andrews 8.17, 9 George White 8.00, 10 Gordon McGregor 7.95

 

1961 - 1 Peter Craven 10.95, 2 Ron How 10.05, 3 Ken McKinlay 9.57, 4 Bob Andrews 9.04, 5 Ronnie Genz 8.16, 6 Nigel Boocock 7.84, 7 George White 7.82, 8 Billy Bales 7.67, 9 Les Owen 7.44, 10 Dick Fisher 7.40

 

1962 - 1 Peter Craven 9.75, 2 Ron How 9.30, 3 Bob Andrews 8.82, 4 Ron Mountford 8.74, 5 Ken McKinlay 8.63, 6 Mike Broadbank 8.27, 7 Nigel Boocock 8.20, 8 Cyril Maidment 7.95, 9 Les Owen 7.61, 10 Cyril Roger 7.49

 

1963 - 1 Dick Fisher 10.19, 2 Peter Craven 10.13, 3 Nigel Boocock 9.84, 4 Ron How 9.68, 5 Ken McKinlay 8.99, 6 Mike Broadbank 8.74, 7 Gordon McGregor 8.67, 8 Dick Bradley 8.55, 9 Terry Betts 8.39, 10 Ronnie Cenz 8.28 (11 Jim Lightfoot 7.31, 12 Bob Andrews 7.29)

 

1964 - 1 Nigel Boocock 10.44, 2 Ken McKinlay 9.92, 3 Ron How 9.84, 4 Mike Broadbank 9.80, 5 Dick Fisher 8.77, 6 Jimmy Gooch 8.00, 7 Cyril Maidment 7.84, 8 Trevor Hedge 7.68, 9 Ron Mountford 7.31, 10 Ronnie Genz 7.27 (11 Jim Lightfoot 7.10, 12 Leo McAuliffe 7.06, 13 Brian Brett 6.98, 14 Bob Andrews 6.88).

Edited June 19, 2016 by BL65

[norbold]

Interesting stuff, BL.

Out of interest as well, I looked up the Speedway Star rankings for those years and these are the British riders positions.

1960: Peter Craven 3rd, Ron How 9th, Ken McKinlay 12th, Eric Williams 20th

1961: Peter Craven 6th, Ron How 7th, Bob Andrews 11th, Ken McKinlay 12th, Mike Broadbanks(s) 16th, Cyril Maidment 19th

1962: Peter Craven 2nd, Ken McKinlay 6th, Bob Andrews 9th, Ron How 12th, Mike Broadbank(s) 18th,

1963: Peter Craven 4th, Nigel Boocock 8th, Ron How 10th

1964: Ron How 7th, Nigel Boocock 8th=, Ken McKinlay 8th=

(1960 - 62 was a top 20; 1963-64 was a top 10)

[iris123]

Picking up on the comment about Bob Andrews, in league racing he was on a par with riders such as Nigel Boocock and Mike Broadbank in the early 1960s, but in 1964 his league average was well down. This may have reflected his discontent at Wimbledon, with that being the year of his abortive attempt to move to Provincial League Wolverhampton. .

 

1960 - , 8 Bob Andrews 8.17, 9 George White 8.00, 10 Gordon McGregor 7.95

 

1961 - , 4 Bob Andrews 9.04, 5 Ronnie Genz 8.16, 6 Nigel Boocock 7.84, 7 George White 7.82, 8 Billy Bales 7.67, 9 Les Owen 7.44, 10 Dick Fisher 7.40

 

1962 -3 Bob Andrews 8.82, 4 Ron Mountford 8.74, 5 Ken McKinlay 8.63, 6 Mike Broadbank 8.27, 7 Nigel Boocock 8.20, 8 Cyril Maidment 7.95, 9 Les Owen 7.61, 10 Cyril Roger 7.49

 

1963 -, 12 Bob Andrews 7.29)

 

1964 -, 14 Bob Andrews 6.88).

The real drop in Andrews average happened in 1963 though.The drop in '64 was less dramatic

[Split]

I've been travelling the world so I've missed out on this lively discussion.

 

Coming back to the original question and turning it around slightly, there can be little doubt that neither Jerzy Szczakiel nor Egon Müller would have been world champion if there had been a GP Series around. Going back further there may be others who only produced a special performance on the night or had a liking for a particular track.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Split

[norbold]

I've been travelling the world so I've missed out on this lively discussion.

 

Coming back to the original question and turning it around slightly, there can be little doubt that neither Jerzy Szczakiel nor Egon Müller would have been world champion if there had been a GP Series around. Going back further there may be others who only produced a special performance on the night or had a liking for a particular track.

Well it was always said the Freddie Williams only won his two titles because he was a Wembley track specialist. Whilst I think Freddie was undoubtedly a top class rider, I think there is some truth in that and that 1950 may have been Graham Warren's year, maybe Aub Lawson or Jack Parker and 1953 would have been Jack Young's again.

[E I Addio]

Sorry mate,you didn't make it clear enough what you meant.Guess with your modus operandi(Latin,plural:modi operandi) anyone could get confused

I don't think anybody has mentioned Ronnie Moore yet. I only saw Ronnie at the back end of his career when he was past his best but still an absolutely sensational rider. He has been described as the most naturally talented rider ever to sit on a Speedwáy bike and qualifying for his first World Final at the age of 17 bears that out.

 

I have heard of fantastic rides at Wimbledon and he seems to have been a model of consistency which would stand him in good stead in a GP system where not just wins but 2nd and 3rd places are important.

 

Of course he missed the 1957 season when he tried car racing, and had that broken leg in '63 which brought about an early retirement before his comeback 6 years later, but potentially he could have been a multi-GP winner by reason of his consistency, and his attitude of taking every race as it comes whether it be a World Final or second half.

 

Who knows ? I admit to bias because the two great riders that stand out in my memory are Ronnie and Briggo

Edited July 16, 2016 by E I Addio

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Think Olsen could of won titles in 72 and 77 Collins was unlucky in 77 was Collins best year 76?

Think 83 over a series would of been well open Carter,Lee,Sigalos,Nielsen,Gundersen,Sanders all riding well 84 onwards Hans certainly.

Not a chance would Olsen have won in '77 - a GP Series then would've been won easily by PC who was streets ahead the best rider in the world in '77.

I'd also say PC would've had a very chance in '74 (Mich's year) and certainly '75 & '78 - so I'd say Ole would've won LESS World titles...

PC World Champ '74 to '78 inclusive would have had a nice ring about it!!

[waiheke1]

Agree pc would have won in 77 but think it is far from clear cut. I believe Olsen dominated open meetings early in the season, and of course won the bloc. And of course pc may have ridden the last few gps hampered by injury.

I reckon both pc and Olsen likely to have ended on 2 gps apiece, but if either were to have won more it would have been Olsen without a doubt IMHO.