lucifer sam Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 There were some truly great Belle Vue riders before the War. In a five year run from 1934-1938, they never had less than three riders in the top 10 averages. 1934: Eric Langton (2nd), Bill Kitchen (7th), Joe Abbott (9th) 1935: Max Grosskreutz (4th), Bill Kitchen (5th), Eric langton (6th) 1936: Max Grosskreutz (2nd), Eric Langton (6th), Joe Abbott (7th), Bill Kitchen (8th) 1937: Eric Langton (3rd), Bill Kitchen (5th), Joe Abbott (7th) 1938: Bill Kitchen (5th), Frank Varey (7th), Eric Langton (10th) Max Grosskreutz is a fascinating figure, who hit a brilliant run of form, despite what was apparently a very unorthodox riding style. But for a fall while leading the key race, he would have won the 1935 Star Championship, and then he could have been the very first World Champion but for an injury in 1936. I believe he lent his bike to Bluey Wilkinson for the '36 final, and of course, Bluey collected a 15-point-maximum. Why did he then retire so suddenly? He was manager at Norwich in 1937. He still held that role in 1938, although he was irregular rider/manager that season, often top scoring for Stars when he chose to ride. And then made another comeback following the war. How good would Grosskreutz have been had he continued riding the whole time? All the best Rob PS Norbold, where are the pre-war averages stored? The fantastic Speedway Researcher site has the results, but I don't think it has averages for these years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) High praise that Norbold ,Johnston i knew was very good indeed but for you to say that real high praise.Sjosten is he a man who sometimes gets forgotten how highly did you rate him ".Norbold" ?.I never see him ride Hyde Rd but see quite a lot of him really exciting i think he was good anough to be a world champion awesome riding style. There were some truly great Belle Vue riders before the War. In a five year run from 1934-1938, they never had less than three riders in the top 10 averages. 1934: Eric Langton (2nd), Bill Kitchen (7th), Joe Abbott (9th) 1935: Max Grosskreutz (4th), Bill Kitchen (5th), Eric langton (6th) 1936: Max Grosskreutz (2nd), Eric Langton (6th), Joe Abbott (7th), Bill Kitchen (8th) 1937: Eric Langton (3rd), Bill Kitchen (5th), Joe Abbott (7th) 1938: Bill Kitchen (5th), Frank Varey (7th), Eric Langton (10th) No other team achieved that record even once during that period!I don't think I can really answer that as I have only ever been to Belle Vue once (shame!), so can't really say how Ron Johnston and Chris Morton might have compared. The reason I mentioned Ron Johnston though comes back again to my New Cross experience. The first time I saw Belle Vue there, Ron Johnston scored an 18 point maximum compared to Peter Craven's 13. He then outscored Craven every time I saw them both at New Cross. In addition, when I wrote my book, "Speedway's Classic Meetings", I featured the Norwich v. Belle Vue Britannia Shield Final 2nd Leg held at Norwich in 1957. Once again it was Johnston who proved the match winner for Belle Vue, scoring a 15 point maximum to Craven's 13. This included Johnston beating Ove Fundin on Fundin's own track of course, while Craven lost to him (and Aub Lawson). In addition to that, as OveFundinFan says, he came 5th in the World Final in my first year of speedway. So right from the beginning, I have had a very favourable impression of Ron Johnston as an outstanding rider - even better than Peter Craven in the matches I personally witnessed or studied, so I was just interested really in a Belle Vue fan's view of him. High praise that Norbold ,Johnston i knew was very good indeed but for you to say that real high praise.Sjosten is he a man who sometimes gets forgotten how highly did you rate him ".Norbold" ?.I never see him ride Hyde Rd but see quite a lot of him really exciting i think he was good anough to be a world champion awesome riding style. Edited June 17, 2016 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 High praise that Norbold ,Johnson i knew was very good indeed but for you to say that real high praise.Sjosten is he a man who sometimes gets forgotten how highly did you rate him ".Norbold" ?.I never see him ride Hyde Rd but see quite a lot of him really exciting i think he was good anough to be a world champion awesome riding style. Here we go again! You do mean Ron JOHNSTON and not Ron JOHNSON I assume? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) Here we go again! You do mean Ron JOHNSTON and not Ron JOHNSON I assume?Sorry yes i mean Johnston my mistake not to much of a problem is it .?.?😀 just wanted to hear "Norbolds opinion on a subject. Edited June 17, 2016 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Sorry yes i mean Johnston my mistake not to much of a problem is it .?.? just wanted to hear "Norbolds opinion on a subject. I saw Ron Johnson - then New Cross - many time when he was at the peak of his post war form - 1946 until the accident at Wimbledon in 1949 brought his top class career to a halt. I also saw the excellent Ron Johnston in action many times for Belle Vue in later seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Max Grosskreutz is a fascinating figure, who hit a brilliant run of form, despite what was apparently a very unorthodox riding style. But for a fall while leading the key race, he would have won the 1935 Star Championship, and then he could have been the very first World Champion but for an injury in 1936. I believe he lent his bike to Bluey Wilkinson for the '36 final, and of course, Bluey collected a 15-point-maximum. Why did he then retire so suddenly? He was manager at Norwich in 1937. He still held that role in 1938, although he was irregular rider/manager that season, often top scoring for Stars when he chose to ride. And then made another comeback following the war. How good would Grosskreutz have been had he continued riding the whole time? All the best Rob PS Norbold, where are the pre-war averages stored? The fantastic Speedway Researcher site has the results, but I don't think it has averages for these years. I agree about Max Grosskreutz. I'm really not sure why he decided to retire at the end of 1936. His announcement came as a complete shock to the speedway world, coming as it did soon after he defeated Lionel Van Praag (newly crowned World Champion) in a match race. Harringay offered Belle Vue a then record transfer fee of £7000 for his services but Grosskreutz said his riding days were over and he wanted to go into management, which he did, of course, at Norwich. Though, as it turned out, his riding days weren't quite over. At Norwich, not only did he take over as a manager, but he laid a new cinder track and took over as chief coach and mechanic as well as manager and then built all the team's bikes! I've got all the average scores from Peter Jackson's excellent series of "Speedway Archives" which has the scores (and scorers) of every National League (Division One) match plus complete scores and averages for every rider who rode. I have volumes 1933-1957.. High praise that Norbold ,Johnston i knew was very good indeed but for you to say that real high praise.Sjosten is he a man who sometimes gets forgotten how highly did you rate him ".Norbold" ?.I never see him ride Hyde Rd but see quite a lot of him really exciting i think he was good anough to be a world champion awesome riding styIe. I almost agree about Sjosten, Sydney. I do rate him very highly but just not enough to think he was quite in the same class as the likes of Fundin, Briggo, Knutson, Craven, Mauger, Still two 3rd places can't be bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMac Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Carter top of the eighties,(not in the NLRC) when Mort mugged him, Ivan,Ole,PC with Mort close were the best i see at Hyde Rd Nielsen, Gundo close after. Another interesting thread might be 'Best Visiting Rider At Your Track'. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 I remember watching Eric Langton of Belle Vue in the 1946 and 1947 seasons. and Max Grosskreutz when he rode for Bradford in 1947 and 1948. And, of course, I saw Vic Duggan, Jack Parker, Ron Johnson, Graham Warren, Wilbur Lamoraeux and so many more of that calibre in those early post-war seasons . I can't mind read norbold. OveFundinFan's comment came up in a board sequence following a post I made where I mentioned my dear old friend Ron Johnson. Thank you for the clarification OveFundiFan. Another thread it seems where I am persona non grata! Except Frank Varey I saw all the named riders race in the immediate post-war seasons from 1946 onwards. I saw Ron Johnson - then New Cross - many time when he was at the peak of his post war form - 1946 until the accident at Wimbledon in 1949 brought his top class career to a halt. I also saw the excellent Ron Johnston in action many times for Belle Vue in later seasons. Maybe get criticized for pointing this out,but these threads are generally about more than naming a list of riders you have seen.Do you have specific memories of these riders or just looking back through old programmes and picking out names?Doesn't help much though,as I am not sure this is a thread abour riders you saw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 iris123 Members 17,138 posts Posted Today, 03:15 PM gustix, on 16 Jun 2016 - 09:01 AM, said: I remember watching Eric Langton of Belle Vue in the 1946 and 1947 seasons. and Max Grosskreutz when he rode for Bradford in 1947 and 1948. And, of course, I saw Vic Duggan, Jack Parker, Ron Johnson, Graham Warren, Wilbur Lamoraeux and so many more of that calibre in those early post-war seasons . gustix, on 16 Jun 2016 - 5:17 PM, said: I can't mind read norbold. OveFundinFan's comment came up in a board sequence following a post I made where I mentioned my dear old friend Ron Johnson. Thank you for the clarification OveFundiFan. Another thread it seems where I am persona non grata! Except Frank Varey I saw all the named riders race in the immediate post-war seasons from 1946 onwards. gustix, on 17 Jun 2016 - 09:28 AM, said: I saw Ron Johnson - then New Cross - many time when he was at the peak of his post war form - 1946 until the accident at Wimbledon in 1949 brought his top class career to a halt. I also saw the excellent Ron Johnston in action many times for Belle Vue in later seasons. Follow up message from iris123: Maybe get criticized for pointing this out,but these threads are generally about more than naming a list of riders you have seen.Do you have specific memories of these riders or just looking back through old programmes and picking out names?Doesn't help much though,as I am not sure this is a thread abour riders you saw ::::::: Gustix response: I do indeed remember very well watching these riders. They were all-time greats and competing for me in that essential era of speedway spectating, my own early years when the sport first makes it impression on you. Their names come to me from memory. I have no collection of magazines, programmes and just a couple of books in my collection to research. For me, the seasons between early 1946 and to the early 1960s were wonderful times. As the old saying goes something like "...memories are made like this..." Over the years, not on the BSF, I have often mentioned these olden days' great riders. They were all many years ago my speedway heroes and remain very much so today. To see them on track was a speedway privilege in an era that has long passed but will always remain with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) Bit of a cock up,that post,so I won't quote it.Trouble is with a forum like this,is that just a list of names that someone saw isn't very helpful or interesting.I guess it is something you don't understand,so I thought I would try and make it clear.People are discussing how good or what qualities a rider had and every time someone is mentioned and another poster pops in with "I saw him ride" doesn't bring us very far I enjoy reading about all these old greats and we have had some interesting stories and statistics,but they seem to come from people who never even saw them ride.And all someone who saw them ride can contribute is "I saw them ride" Edited June 17, 2016 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Bit of a cock up,that post,so I won't quote it.Trouble is with a forum like this,is that just a list of names that someone saw isn't very helpful or interesting.I guess it is something you don't understand,so I thought I would try and make it clear.People are discussing how good or what qualities a rider had and every time someone is mentioned and another poster pops in with "I saw him ride" doesn't bring us very far I enjoy reading about all these old greats and we have had some interesting stories and statistics,but they seem to come from people who never even saw them ride.And all someone who saw them ride can contribute is "I saw them ride" I could give specific memories of watching all the old-time stars I have seen. I frequently mention these all-time on another forum where they are well received, both by its moderator and the forum's members. And it's not a Facebook group where I may have associations but a website independent of anything other than the input I provide for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) I never tire of talking about yesteryear,i enjoy it and if i can learn off the likes of "Norburn"(ect)it cant be bad can it.?☺ Edited June 17, 2016 by Sidney the robin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 I never tire of talking about yesteryear,i enjoy it and if i can learn off the likes of "Norburn"(ect)it cant be bad can it.?☺ Agreed.I know you saw Martin Ashby more than me Sid,but he was one of my favourite opposition riders.In fact he rode quite a bit for the Dons,so was almost one of our own.Never as good as the fantastic Peter Collins,but one of those riders the sport need Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) Agreed.I know you saw Martin Ashby more than me Sid,but he was one of my favourite opposition riders.In fact he rode quite a bit for the Dons,so was almost one of our own.Never as good as the fantastic Peter Collins,but one of those riders the sport need He guested alot for the late great Tommy Jansson Ashby was a real star in my eyes Briggs Ashby Crump Adams the mainstay of Swindon for the last 50 years.As a visiting rider to the Abbey although not the best and i was not a fan of his Gordon Kennett had a great record there. Edited June 17, 2016 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 He guested alot for the late great Tommy Jansson Ashby was a real star in my eyes Briggs Ashby Crump Adams the mainstay of Swindon for the last 50 years.As a visiting rider to the Abbey although not the best and i was not a fan of his Gordon Kennett had a great record there. Also not a great fan.2nd in the world in 1978.Could he have achieved that in a GP series?I don't think so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Have to disagree, lads, regarding Gordon Kennett. A genuine number one for both White City (1976-78) and Eastbourne (1979-82) recording very impressive averages. Very under rated rider often ignored by the selectors. Finishing second in the 1978 Final was a deserving achievement for his consistency but no, l agree, wouldn't have achieved that honour under the GP formula...but that would also have applied to many other riders over the years who achieved same! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted June 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2016 Kennett often gets forgotten when talking about the past, thinking about it for me he is the best rider i ever see ride Eastbourne.When i think of the period 1970 /80 we had British talent in abundance so much talent.Will get shot down maybe but my British top ten from 1970/80 ( no order) are Lee,Collins,Louis,Simmons,Ray Wilson,Ashby,Betts,E.Boocock, N.Boocock,Jessup.( Kennett would be in my top 20 easily and there is a good case for him to be in a top 10 ( ie) he achieved more on the world scene than Ashby,E.Boocock,Betts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted June 18, 2016 Report Share Posted June 18, 2016 When you look at that abundance of top British names, Sidney, all riding at the same time, it makes you weep at the "talent" we have these days! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted June 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2016 (edited) When you look at that abundance of top British names, Sidney, all riding at the same time, it makes you weep at the "talent" we have these days!Those days are well gone but on Monday i know it was a different level we are talking about but i really enjoyed the British Final.Kennett often gets forgotten when talking about the past, thinking about it for me he is the best rider i ever see ride Eastbourne.When i think of the period 1970 /80 we had British talent in abundance so much talent.Will get shot down maybe but my British top ten from 1970/80 ( no order) are Lee,Collins,Louis,Simmons,Ray Wilson,Ashby,Betts,E.Boocock, N.Boocock,Jessup.( Kennett would be in my top 20 easily and there is a good case for him to be in a top 10 ( ie) he achieved more on the world scene than Ashby,E.Boocock,Betts.oops forgot Carter he would be in a top ten. Edited June 18, 2016 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted June 18, 2016 Report Share Posted June 18, 2016 Those days are well gone but on Monday i know it was a different level we are talking about but i really enjoyed the British Final.oops forgot Carter he would be in a top ten.Probably not 1970-1980 though sid?Mort must be close, in fact both Mortons ahead of Carter over that period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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