Fundin Olsen Nielsen Would They Have All Won More World Title's If There Had Been A Gp Series Around.?

[waiheke1]

As did Peter Collins.

[norbold]

As did Peter Collins.

Indeed he did. This could go on for some time.

 

Perhaps people should be more specific with their questions!

[lucifer sam]

 

Who never won a GP but became World Champion?

 

 

 

Actually it was Mark Loram

 

Incorrect. Mark Loram won two Grand Prix rounds - one in 1997 and one in 1999.

 

There's plenty of World Champions who never won a Grand Prix, but Mark Loram is not one of them.

 

All the best

Rob

[BL65]

Ove Fundin is an interesting one. I think he could well have won every year from 1956 to 1963, though Briggo would have been a good bet maybe for 1958. Similarly Peter Craven for 1962. He would almost certainly not have won in 1967. So he actually won five, but could have won eight on the trot, though two doubtful, making six more likely, so, yes, one more than he did win at least.

Interesting to note the points totalled in 4 big meetings in the UK in 1962 in which a group of 9 leading British-based riders all competed. In the meetings comprising the World Final at Wembley, the Laurels, Gold Cup and Internationale (all at Wimbledon) the total points accumulated were Barry Briggs 54, Ove Fundin 53 (won the Internationale and The Laurels), Ronnie Moore 45 (Gold Cup winner), Peter Craven 44 (World Champion), Bjorn Knutsson 43, Ron How 36, Bob Andrews 34, Ken McKinlay 30, Soren Sjosten 28.

 

It would have been interesting to see the outcome if all had competed together in meetings on a wider range of tracks. A series including meetings on continental tracks would probably have seen the top five still there or thereabouts, but several top class non British-based riders might also have scored well.

[BL65]

In 1961 the group of riders who competed in The Malmo World Final, Harringay Internationale Final, Gold Cup and Laurels (both at Wimbledon) accumulated the following points - Barry Briggs 52, Ronnie Moore 51, Ove Fundin 50, Peter Craven 42, Bjorn Knuts(s)on 39, Bob Andrews 39 and Ron How 32. Fundin was World Champion, although Knutson recorded 4 wins and a fall. Briggs won The Laurels, Moore was victorious in the Gold Cup and Fundin won a run-off against Moore to win the Internationale.

[lucifer sam]

In 1961 the group of riders who competed in The Malmo World Final, Harringay Internationale Final, Gold Cup and Laurels (both at Wimbledon) accumulated the following points - Barry Briggs 52, Ronnie Moore 51, Ove Fundin 50, Peter Craven 42, Bjorn Knuts(s)on 39, Bob Andrews 39 and Ron How 32. Fundin was World Champion, although Knutson recorded 4 wins and a fall. Briggs won The Laurels, Moore was victorious in the Gold Cup and Fundin won a run-off against Moore to win the Internationale.

 

BL65, good stuff, and it shows how closely matched the top riders were.

 

Although to be honest, I'm not sure if the Gold Cup and Laurels were on a par with the World Final or Internationale. The big two individual meetings... and both won by Fundin.

 

In fact, Fundin's hat-trick of Internationale wins from 1961-63, plus his superior record in the Golden Helmet Match Race again suggest that while the competition were not far behind, he had the slight edge from '56 to '63. Interestingly, I stumbled across a 1964 interview with Fundin the other day, when it was mentioned he thought he had lost his edge that year. He was talking about retirement and, of course, he did semi-retire after the closure of Norwich, which made some of subsequent achievements even more amazing.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited June 14, 2016 by lucifer sam

[BL65]

 

BL65, good stuff, and it shows how closely matched the top riders were.

 

Although to be honest, I'm not sure if the Gold Cup and Laurels were on a par with the World Final or Internationale. The big two individual meetings... and both won by Fundin.

 

In fact, Fundin's hat-trick of Internationale wins from 1961-63, plus his superior record in the Golden Helmet Match Race again suggest that while the competition were not far behind, he had the slight edge from '56 to '63. Interestingly, I stumbled across a 1964 interview with Fundin the other day, when it was mentioned he thought he had lost his edge that year. He was talking about retirement and, of course, he did semi-retire after the closure of Norwich, which made some of subsequent achievements even more amazing.

 

All the best

Rob

It does indeed show how closely matched the top group of riders were. 1963 results for the World Final, Internationale and Gold Cup only show slight surprises (6 riders competed in all three meetings, but not all of them took part in The Laurels that year). Totals were Bjorn Knutson 38, Ove Fundin 37, Barry Briggs 36, Sverre Harrfeldt 34, Nigel Boocock 30, Peter Craven 26.

 

If I had ranked British-based riders over the period 1961 to 1963 from memory, and taking into account all meetings rather than just looking at statistics from some of the big individual meetings, I would have had a top five of 1. Ove Fundin, 2. Barry Briggs, 3. Ronnie Moore, 4. Bjorn Knutson, 5. Peter Craven.

[Sidney the robin]

It does indeed show how closely matched the top group of riders were. 1963 results for the World Final, Internationale and Gold Cup only show slight surprises (6 riders competed in all three meetings, but not all of them took part in The Laurels that year). Totals were Bjorn Knutson 38, Ove Fundin 37, Barry Briggs 36, Sverre Harrfeldt 34, Nigel Boocock 30, Peter Craven 26.

 

If I had ranked British-based riders over the period 1961 to 1963 from memory, and taking into account all meetings rather than just looking at statistics from some of the big individual meetings, I would have had a top five of 1. Ove Fundin, 2. Barry Briggs, 3. Ronnie Moore, 4. Bjorn Knutson, 5. Peter Craven.

What a top five BL all legends, BL have you any idea roughly what Craven's Hyde Rd record was against Fundin ? my uncle told me he always held his own there.I always imagined Ove to be a white liner tough as old boots ( only see him ride twice) have pictures of Craven leading him there one in the Helmet i think.?

[norbold]

If I had ranked British-based riders over the period 1961 to 1963 from memory, and taking into account all meetings rather than just looking at statistics from some of the big individual meetings, I would have had a top five of 1. Ove Fundin, 2. Barry Briggs, 3. Ronnie Moore, 4. Bjorn Knutson, 5. Peter Craven.

 

From my memory of those years I would go along with that, BL.

 

What a top five BL all legends, BL have you any idea roughly what Craven's Hyde Rd record was against Fundin ? my uncle told me he always held his own there.I always imagined Ove to be a white liner tough as old boots ( only see him ride twice) have pictures of Craven leading him there one in the Helmet i think.?

The dedicated Ove Fundin fan and great speedway statistician and historian, the late Keith Farman, compiled a complete record of every race Ove had ever ridden in this country. He found that Ove Fundin beat the other Big Four more times than they beat him, but that of those, Peter Craven beat him more times than any of the others.

[BL65]

What a top five BL all legends, BL have you any idea roughly what Craven's Hyde Rd record was against Fundin ? my uncle told me he always held his own there.I always imagined Ove to be a white liner tough as old boots ( only see him ride twice) have pictures of Craven leading him there one in the Helmet i think.?

A quick glance through my records indicates that between 1956 and 1963 Peter Craven and Ove Fundin met in 49 races at Hyde Road, with Peter ahead 31-18.

1956 team matches Craven 0 Fundin 2

1957 Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 0

1958 team Craven 3 Fundin 0, Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 0

1959 team Craven 0 Fundin 1, Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 1

1960 team Craven 1 Fundin 4

1961 team Craven 3 Fundin 1, Golden Helmet Craven 0 Fundin 2, second half races Craven 3 Fundin 0

1962 team Craven 3 Fundin 2, Golden Helmet Craven 3 Fundin 2

1963 team Craven 3 Fundin 2, Golden Helmet Craven 4 Fundin 0, second half Craven 2 Fundin 1

 

Not including the second half races, some of which were Gold Cup qualifiers, the score was Craven 26 Fundin 17.

[Guest]

Indeed he did. This could go on for some time.

 

Perhaps people should be more specific with their questions!

 

Careful Norbold - asking a question like that! It led me into trouble on another thread when I remarked that Posts should be more specific.

[Sidney the robin]

A quick glance through my records indicates that between 1956 and 1963 Peter Craven and Ove Fundin met in 49 races at Hyde Road, with Peter ahead 31-18.

1956 team matches Craven 0 Fundin 2

1957 Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 0

1958 team Craven 3 Fundin 0, Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 0

1959 team Craven 0 Fundin 1, Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 1

1960 team Craven 1 Fundin 4

1961 team Craven 3 Fundin 1, Golden Helmet Craven 0 Fundin 2, second half races Craven 3 Fundin 0

1962 team Craven 3 Fundin 2, Golden Helmet Craven 3 Fundin 2

1963 team Craven 3 Fundin 2, Golden Helmet Craven 4 Fundin 0, second half Craven 2 Fundin 1

 

Not including the second half races, some of which were Gold Cup qualifiers, the score was Craven 26 Fundin 17.

Thanks BL great stuff up until his death the original PC was in front was aged only 29 how many titles could he have won who knows!😀 Edited June 15, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[norbold]

Thanks BL great stuff up until his death the original PC was in front was aged only 29 how many titles could he have won who knows!

Who knows indeed, Sydney. Personally, though, I don't think he would have won any more. Ove 63, Briggo 64 and 66, Bjorn 65, frankly couldn't see him beating any of those. Maybe 67 might have been his one chance as we then moved into the Mauger years.

A quick glance through my records indicates that between 1956 and 1963 Peter Craven and Ove Fundin met in 49 races at Hyde Road, with Peter ahead 31-18.

1956 team matches Craven 0 Fundin 2

1957 Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 0

1958 team Craven 3 Fundin 0, Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 0

1959 team Craven 0 Fundin 1, Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 1

1960 team Craven 1 Fundin 4

1961 team Craven 3 Fundin 1, Golden Helmet Craven 0 Fundin 2, second half races Craven 3 Fundin 0

1962 team Craven 3 Fundin 2, Golden Helmet Craven 3 Fundin 2

1963 team Craven 3 Fundin 2, Golden Helmet Craven 4 Fundin 0, second half Craven 2 Fundin 1

 

Not including the second half races, some of which were Gold Cup qualifiers, the score was Craven 26 Fundin 17.

It would be interesting to know what the Norwich scores were.

[lucifer sam]

Who knows indeed, Sydney. Personally, though, I don't think he would have won any more. Ove 63, Briggo 64 and 66, Bjorn 65, frankly couldn't see him beating any of those. Maybe 67 might have been his one chance as we then moved into the Mauger years.

 

 

I'm slightly less convinced. After Fundin dipped slightly following 1963, Briggo and Knutsson shared top billing in '64 and '65 (with Plechanov also right up there), and then it was Briggo in '66 and '67.

 

At the time of his death, Craven was a two-time World Champion and so was Briggo. Who was the better of the two? There's an argument both ways - but it's possible that Craven would have taken a title or two from Briggo.

 

All the best

Rob

[norbold]

 

I'm slightly less convinced. After Fundin dipped slightly following 1963, Briggo and Knutsson shared top billing in '64 and '65 (with Plechanov also right up there), and then it was Briggo in '66 and '67.

 

At the time of his death, Craven was a two-time World Champion and so was Briggo. Who was the better of the two? There's an argument both ways - but it's possible that Craven would have taken a title or two from Briggo.

 

All the best

Rob

Of course, Rob, we will never know and it is all open to speculation. I am to some extent going by my own memory of the period. I was a little surprised at the time when Knutson didn't win the 1964 World title as I think he had his best years in 64 and 65. I know Briggo had had two good years back in 1957 and 58, but to me he seemed to take a slight dip after that but came back even stronger in the 64-67 period. I think my view of Peter Craven may be somewhat coloured by his performances at New Cross as he never seemed to me to really get to grips with the track and was always behind the likes of Fundin and Ronnie Moore at the Frying Pan. Though, of course, probably Briggo's worst year was the year he actually rode for New Cross as he didn't really like it either - too small! However, I was able to see Briggo at West Ham later on a track much more to his liking, but sadly, by the time West Ham opened, Craven was no longer with us.

 

All very subjective I suppose.

[lucifer sam]

Of course, Rob, we will never know and it is all open to speculation. I am to some extent going by my own memory of the period. I was a little surprised at the time when Knutson didn't win the 1964 World title as I think he had his best years in 64 and 65. I know Briggo had had two good years back in 1957 and 58, but to me he seemed to take a slight dip after that but came back even stronger in the 64-67 period. I think my view of Peter Craven may be somewhat coloured by his performances at New Cross as he never seemed to me to really get to grips with the track and was always behind the likes of Fundin and Ronnie Moore at the Frying Pan. Though, of course, probably Briggo's worst year was the year he actually rode for New Cross as he didn't really like it either - too small! However, I was able to see Briggo at West Ham later on a track much more to his liking, but sadly, by the time West Ham opened, Craven was no longer with us.

 

All very subjective I suppose.

 

Hi Norbold, yes it's all subjective.

 

My dad reckoned Peter Craven was the best rider around Oxford in that era. He smashed the Oxford track record in 1963, when beating Fundin in the Golden Helmet and the record stood until they changed the length of the track in 1974. No-one went faster around Cowley until Dave Perks in 1981.

 

Opinions are coloured by how they perform around your own track. It's probably why many Oxford fans of a certain age considered Craven to be the best of the lot.

 

And it's probably why, many years before the Nielsen feud, many Oxford fans didn't rate Olsen, who couldn't stand the place, made excuses not to turn up at Cowley, and refused to come when allocated to Oxford by Rider Control in 1975.

 

All the best

Rob

[BL65]

Who knows indeed, Sydney. Personally, though, I don't think he would have won any more. Ove 63, Briggo 64 and 66, Bjorn 65, frankly couldn't see him beating any of those. Maybe 67 might have been his one chance as we then moved into the Mauger years.

It would be interesting to know what the Norwich scores were.

Again, scanning through my records I believe that between 1955 and 1963 Ove Fundin and Peter Craven met in 84 races at The Firs, with Ove ahead 52-32.

1955 team match Fundin 0 Craven 3

1956 team Fundin 2 Craven 1, Individual meeting Fundin 1 Craven 0, second half race Fundin 0 Craven 1

1957 team Fundin 1 Craven 1, Individual Fundin 1 Craven 1, Golden Helmet Fundin 2 Craven 1, second half Fundin 1 Craven 0

1958 team Fundin 1 Craven 2, Individual Fundin 3 Craven 1, Test Fundin 1 Craven 1, Golden Helmet Fundin 2 Craven 0

1959 team Fundin 1 Craven 0, Individual Fundin 3 Craven 2, Golden Helmet Fundin 4 Craven 2, second half Fundin 1 Craven 0

1960 team Fundin 5 Craven 2, second half Fundin 1 Craven 0

1961 team Fundin 1 Craven 4, Individual Fundin 0 Craven 1, Test Fundin 2 Craven 0, Golden Helmet Fundin 2 Craven 0, second half Fundin 2 Craven 2

1962 team Fundin 2 Craven 2, second half Fundin 1 Craven 2

1963 team Fundin 5 Craven 0, Individual Fundin 1 Craven 0, Golden Helmet Fundin 4 Craven 2, second half Fundin 2 Craven 1

Not including the second half races the score was Fundin 44 Craven 26.

Peter was ahead in 63% of all their races at Belle Vue and Ove was ahead in 62% at Norwich. Excluding second half races Craven was ahead in 60.5% at Hyde Road and Ove was ahead in 63% at The Firs.

[norbold]

 

My dad reckoned Peter Craven was the best rider around Oxford in that era. He smashed the Oxford track record in 1963, when beating Fundin in the Golden Helmet and the record stood until they changed the length of the track in 1974.

Funnily enough, that's just reminded me of when Ove Fundin smashed the New Cross track record in 1960, when beating Briggo in the Golden Helmet. He beat the old track record in both races. Not only did he smash the track record but he also smashed Briggo! This record also stood till New Cross closed in 1963.

 

Finally, just to put all this in the context of my experience, the first meeting I ever went to was New Cross v. Norwich. Fundin scored an 18 point maximum and was just unstoppable, in a class of his own. I guess that has coloured my views ever since! Plus I've known him personally for about the last 15 years and he's a top bloke!

[Sidney the robin]

Of course, Rob, we will never know and it is all open to speculation. I am to some extent going by my own memory of the period. I was a little surprised at the time when Knutson didn't win the 1964 World title as I think he had his best years in 64 and 65. I know Briggo had had two good years back in 1957 and 58, but to me he seemed to take a slight dip after that but came back even stronger in the 64-67 period. I think my view of Peter Craven may be somewhat coloured by his performances at New Cross as he never seemed to me to really get to grips with the track and was always behind the likes of Fundin and Ronnie Moore at the Frying Pan. Though, of course, probably Briggo's worst year was the year he actually rode for New Cross as he didn't really like it either - too small! However, I was able to see Briggo at West Ham later on a track much more to his liking, but sadly, by the time West Ham opened, Craven was no longer with us.

All very subjective I suppose.

Craven i would imagine would of loved West Ham,Craven/Briggs both have to be in the best five riders to ever ride Hyde Rd.

[waiheke1]

Along with the other pc, Olsen and Carter? Or Mauger? Gundersen? Parker or fundin?