Christopher Bcmma Cook Posted June 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 which rider will be allowed 7 rides.. 6 man teams would mean 3 sets of pairings, then in other races mix it up 1+2 , 3+4 ,5+6. then 1+3 , 2+4 , 3+5, 2+6, etc etc would it work thou On my fixed 15-heat format for League Racing each rider gets 5 rides, there is no nominated heat. On the 14 Heat League Cup format which has 2 nominated heats each rider gets 4 rides each before any nominations. 13 heat format is again 4 rides each with 1 nominated heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 To be fair granted, no matter what state of the sport, you will see some close racing at all levels, but also on the flip side of the coin you will see some dross - the same would happen even under my own proposed ideas - but my proposal is about building from the bottom down and working its way back up again to maybe a time in the future where the "stars" will come and play in the UK. At the moment all but a few don't want the UK, i fear the BSPA will bend over backwards just to attract a few additional names which in essence does nothing for british speedway because there is not enough interest to warrant having these guys at present, if all these changes are made to accomodate the big stars, what will happen is clubs will go bust, and these big stars will just carry on racing elsewhere. I'm amaized that people like holder, NKI etc. still do the UK and all credit to them AFAIC the BSPA should bend over backwards to get as many top riders here as is possible because if the Polish model and Swedish model (reduced programme , same day racing) works then that's what we should do. There IS a way of making it work plus ensuring tracks that want and need more meetings have another meaningful competition on top of that. Any sport without a top level of participation is a farce so whilst any further weakening is a short term cut not having a top flight is not the answer either IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Bcmma Cook Posted June 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Everyone can have their opinion for sure However, Polish speedway is losing money, Swedish speedway is losing money, bending over backwards to get these few elite riders into British speedway will lose money here - riders will not ride here for any less no matter what fixed race night etc. most crowds in Poland/Sweden are bigger than the UK. I would agree that any sport not having top level athletes is a farce but this is domestic British speedway we are talking about - look at it this way and it is different because speedway riders can race for more than one team but look at British Superbikes..... It doesn;t have all the top athletes they all race in MotoGP/WBSK - BSB doesnt even have all the best UK riders such as Camier, Rea, Crutchlow, Sykes etc. but they have the best of what is available, a few ex GP riders etc. - It is still a great product, with crowds in excess of 35,000 British Speedway does not need the top names 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Is this format anything to do with what was scheduled to be tested at Kings Lynn between Newcastle and Scunthorpe? Did this 'Test' actually take place? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Bcmma Cook Posted June 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 I'm unware of any format or tests that are going on lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Is this format anything to do with what was scheduled to be tested at Kings Lynn between Newcastle and Scunthorpe? Did this 'Test' actually take place? What's this you're talking about? Haven't heard this before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 What's this you're talking about? Haven't heard this before Behind closed doors, all promotors, team managers, referees and officials were invited and to offer feedback. 6 rider teams only...over 15 heats. double points scraped...return to TS whenever team fell behind. No RR...etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 If they come up with a format then it should be tested in computer models to see how much it screws up averages, what biases it has etc. Something the current format fails at badly, the traditional 15 heat format is not perfect but it's certainly better. I'd suggest that you have 3 pairs as 12, 34 and 56. Each pair contains a rider from 1-3 in the averages and from 4-6 in the averages as team managers discretion. 12 12 34 34 56 56 12 34 34 56 56 12 12 56 34 12 56 34 14 16 36 32 52 54 16 54 32 32 54 16 The order of heats would need tweaking as heat 12 and 13 has two riders having two on the trot but ultimately the first 9 heats sees every rider meet every other rider once. Then the 2nd 6 would just jumble it up a bit but still ultimately have a heat leader and a second string in every heat unless a manager decided to put 1 (or more) of his pairs the "wrong" way around but what he gains in one heat he'd lose in the next. It should even out. The idea would be 18 heats, 12 12 34 34 56 56 12 34 34 56 56 12 12 56 34 12 56 34 12 12 34 34 56 56 12 34 34 56 56 12 12 56 34 12 56 34 Run through once of gates 1&3 then again off 2&4. All riders meeting all others twice and you have a consistent race partner. But it means 18 heats. Does the not paying for a 7th rider allow a bit more money to pay for 18 more points each meeting? Probably not really as the average rider will score about 5-6 points. Or you could do with the first 9 heats then have 3 heats of 13,45,26 vs 13,45,26 but the rule is the 6 as to be your #6 and #2 has to be a second string. Then you nominate the final 3 races in any order the team manager wishes. Bit of writing as it 3 heats to write in but it's more tactical. The nominated heats could even be heats 7,11 and 15 so a manager has to plan nominates ahead and really think about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) Is this format anything to do with what was scheduled to be tested at Kings Lynn between Newcastle and Scunthorpe? Did this 'Test' actually take place? Yes it did. Must compliment the OP CBC on their well thought out proposals. Yes, there could be probs with availability, number of meetings, skewed averages, etc, but it is probably the best presented alternative that have seen on here. A lot of effort and consideration, but of course it has to be based on many assumptions and that is what others have highlighted and dismissed. If we all could agree the basic assumptions the rest of putting leagues and teams together would be relatively easy. Unfortunately we don't start from the same base, being top riders against top racing, big high paid stars or moderate riders. if the new 6 man team experiment works, it would be better in many ways with less guests and RR and the abolishment of double points from the gate. So it's really the return of TS's off 15M say. Our manager George English is very thorough and experienced, and knows more than most about teams and management. Him together with the enthusiastic Rob, is a good mix of experience and enthusiasm, together with the views of others in attendance, I am sure something positive will result from this initiative. Perhaps they should co-opt Christopher Bcmma Cook as the fans input. Edited June 9, 2016 by Tsunami 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Everyone can have their opinion for sure However, Polish speedway is losing money, Swedish speedway is losing money, bending over backwards to get these few elite riders into British speedway will lose money here - riders will not ride here for any less no matter what fixed race night etc. most crowds in Poland/Sweden are bigger than the UK. I would agree that any sport not having top level athletes is a farce but this is domestic British speedway we are talking about - look at it this way and it is different because speedway riders can race for more than one team but look at British Superbikes..... It doesn;t have all the top athletes they all race in MotoGP/WBSK - BSB doesnt even have all the best UK riders such as Camier, Rea, Crutchlow, Sykes etc. but they have the best of what is available, a few ex GP riders etc. - It is still a great product, with crowds in excess of 35,000 British Speedway does not need the top names I respect your opinion, however I disagree with the last sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Yes it did. Was you at that? Any good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 valve Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) Avoiding the detail (such as how many teams in the EL) for the time being as this gets in the way of creating an initial concept to build on. How about 6 man teams Heat leaders 1,3 & 5 top average = No1, 2nd=No.3 3rdNo.5 4thNo.2 5thNo.4 6thNo.6 Total team points limit 37 12 heat format Riding in fixed pairs v fixed pairs round robin heats 1-9 Heat 10 4&6 v 4&6. Heat 11 5&2 v 5&2 heat 12 1& 3 v 1&3 Tactical substitute allowed but only heat leader for heat leader or second string for second string after heat 6 if team falls 6 or more points behind. No TS can be used for heats 11&12 3 TS allowed per meeting Riders must have minimum of three rides maximum of 5 If rider is injured & withdrawn then IRR allowed irrespective of score but must be on same rules as TS.IRR allowed for heats 11&12 Interval after heat 12. 2nd half - short individual event Hat 1. Top 4 riders as programmed of home team. Heat 2. Top 4 riders as programmed of Away team Heat 3. Lowest two riders as programmed of each team Heat 4. Final - 1st two riders of heats 1&2 Objective. Create snappy team event where results are protected from becoming too one sided by giving team manager has more tactical alternatives than present. Provide an alternative second half format to the main event - "Rider of The Night" Edited June 9, 2016 by 1 valve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Was you at that? Any good? NO, but i obviously found out about it. It was all top secret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherwatcher Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Most of the EL clubs can't even afford to bring in the big names as they are asking far to much money. It almost killed off the EL in the 90's and would do so again. I see nothing wrong with what he proposed, so we may not get to see the big names ride over here. But unless something is done and done very quickly, then the EL will be just a memory, because with the level of fans going now it will be dead before to long. The same goes for teams in the PL and NL, but at least they run on a much tighter budget than the EL. It is a matter of do we want to still watch speedway in Great Britain, or do we have to end up just watching streams of Polish and Swedish meetings, but the way the clubs are going on over there they are on a colision coarse, with bowing and scraping and paying stuppid money to the top riders, just like they usewd to do over here and look where it got British speedway, the mess we are in now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damosuzuki Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 If the two regions rode on separate nights (say a Thursday and a Friday) Could you then not have a limited number of double uppers. EG Lawson riding for Glesga and Essex? I know there's tons of issues but the idea of a northern league with the chance to ride against Belle vue is great for Glasgow, then pump Poole in a sort of Superbowl.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Bcmma Cook Posted June 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 SuperBowl is at the end of the year when the top 4 from each division collide Biggest issues with DU riders is that when they clash is the main cup comp or end of season play offs and both teams are up against each other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 There is no future when the present generation of fans die off. New blood is what this sport desperately needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Yes it did. Must compliment the OP CBC on their well thought out proposals. Yes, there could be probs with availability, number of meetings, skewed averages, etc, but it is probably the best presented alternative that have seen on here. A lot of effort and consideration, but of course it has to be based on many assumptions and that is what others have highlighted and dismissed. If we all could agree the basic assumptions the rest of putting leagues and teams together would be relatively easy. Unfortunately we don't start from the same base, being top riders against top racing, big high paid stars or moderate riders. if the new 6 man team experiment works, it would be better in many ways with less guests and RR and the abolishment of double points from the gate. So it's really the return of TS's off 15M say. Our manager George English is very thorough and experienced, and knows more than most about teams and management. Him together with the enthusiastic Rob, is a good mix of experience and enthusiasm, together with the views of others in attendance, I am sure something positive will result from this initiative. Perhaps they should co-opt Christopher Bcmma Cook as the fans input. Thanks for confirming :-) Hopefully what has been proposed will make a turning point for a brighter and healthier future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 2nd half - short individual event Hat 1. Top 4 riders as programmed of home team. Heat 2. Top 4 riders as programmed of Away team Heat 3. Lowest two riders as programmed of each team Heat 4. Final - 1st two riders of heats 1&2 You won't get a second half like that, after 15 heats 1, clubs have a curfew, and 2, riders will not want that. 3, if you get a big smash during the main meeting then your in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 So, 6-man teams, 15 heats in a new racing format; no double point tacticals; no reserves just 6 riders in an agreed points limit - enthusiasm abounds. Lets hope we get some factual feedback from Tuesday's 'test'?! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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