1947 North V South Cup, Div 3

[moxey63]

Can anybody shed light on the 1947 Division Three North v South Cup. It was two groups, which were won by Southampton and Tamworth. But the Final was between Eastbourne (who finished second behind Southampton in the group) and Tamworth. Does anybody know why Southampton did not take part in the Final... and why was the Final (Tamworth v Eastbourne) one leg only?

[daveallan81]

Are you sure that Southampton won the group?

[moxey63]

Thanks for replying..

 

According to Speedway Researcher, Southampton and Eastbourne finished on the same points but Soton had a better race-point difference. The only question mark, is the Plymouth v Southampton match (Soton won) in the group. One part of the Researcher (Club section) has as North v South fixture, and yet another (Year by Year) has it as a Challenge. If this were a Challenge and not NvS, then Soton would have not have finished on the same points as Eastbourne.

[daveallan81]

If the match is a challenge then that means Plymouth didn't face Southampton in the cup. I also note Exeter face Eastbourne at home twice, yet there is no return fixture. Both of these situations seem a bit strange.

 

15/10 Exeter 62 Eastbourne 34 - on the Exeter 1947 team file this match is shown as Monday 15th however the 15th was a Wednesday. Far be it from me to doubt the researchers involved, but you can't have it both ways. If the date is wrong then perhaps the competition is also wrong, and if you strip this result out Eastbourne's points difference drastically improves.

[moxey63]

I was thinking that maybe Eastbourne closed prematurely for some reason, hence needing to race their "home" match vs Exeter at The County Ground. It could explain being the one leg of the Final, at Tamworth.

[daveallan81]

That is a possibility. I note the Monday 15th October error is carried into the Eastbourne file so perhaps contacting the autor would be the way ahead.

[norbold]

According to Stenners, it was called the Midlands v. South Cup.

 

The match on 15 October was a "home" cup tie for Eastbourne but was raced at Exeter. They had raced their last match at Arlington on 4 October, their last league match against Cradley Heath. Charlie Dugard was losing money on the venue and moved operations to Hastings in 1948. I guess he decided to cut his losses once the league season was done. 15 October was a Wednesday.

 

I can't see any record of a Plymouth v. Southampton Cup match in Stenners. They raced three times, two league matches and one challenge.

Edited June 3, 2016 by norbold

[BL65]

Although the speedway press listed the meeting on 3rd July as a challenge, the Plymouth programme stated that it was a cup match, being part of the Midlands v South competition. I think I would be more inclined to accept the information in the programme. Also, in the Plymouth programme for the meeting against Eastbourne on 2nd October there is a description of the competition, including a comment that 'Eastbourne are strong favourites for the South and Tamworth are running Cradley Heath a hard race for the Midlands honours'. The programme article continued with 'I don't know where the final will be contested. It may be on a London track but more about this later. Birmingham have offered their stadium for the occasion, but that seems a long way away for the good folk of the South to visit.' This indicates at that point the final was intended to be a single meeting held on a neutral track. It transpired that it was a single meeting, but held at the track of one of the finalists (Tamworth). As the meeting was not held until 5th November it is likely that other venues were not available.

 

The Plymouth programme for the meeting on 2nd October stated that Eastbourne needed to win to qualify for the final. The local press reported the next morning that Eastbourne had duly qualified. It appears that at that date it was believed the Eastbourne v Exeter fixture would not be raced, with Eastbourne qualifying for the final on race points difference. Subsequently, the outstanding meeting between these teams was held at Exeter. A meeting was originally scheduled to take place at Exeter on Monday, 13th October, but the match against Eastbourne was actually held on Wednesday, 15th October. As this meeting took place after Eastbourne had qualified for the final the result had no bearing, although the final standings in the completed group causes confusion.

Edited June 4, 2016 by BL65

[moxey63]

Thanks for that impressive break down BL65, and also for the help offered from Dave Allan, and Norbold too!

 

I am always amazed by the knowledge of some speedway folk.

 

The only thing that baffles me, is the fact that Southampton surely would have tried to run the match with Plymouth as they had chance of making the final.Don't you just love the quirkiness and strange things that happen in speedway?

 

I am trying to do a book featuring everything my one does for 1991-2016 covering 1946-64 and just want it to be as correct as possible.

 

 

 

I may be back!

Edited June 4, 2016 by moxey63

[Guest compost]

The Plymouth file on the Researcher website has the North (or Midlands) v South Cup dates for Plymouth v Southampton as at Plymouth on the 3rd July (41-54 to Saints) and the return at Southampton on the 19th August (60-36 Saints). There is no corresponding Southampton file on the website to double check this.

 

Norbold - what does your Stenners list for the 3rd July ?

 

A cut off date for the competition does make sense to the final standings as if you delete the Eastbourne v Exeter match on the 15th October Eastbourne have a race points difference of 35 to the Saints 23 with both on 4 match wins for 8 match points - Eastbourne would head the table at that point.

[norbold]

Ooops sorry, yes, compost, I missed that before. July 3rd is a Midlands v. South Cup: Plymouth 41 Southampton 54 in Stenners.

 

Incidentally, moxey, where did you get North v. South Cup from as it seems to be Midlands v. South Cup? Is that a mistake on the Speedway Researcher site or is there other evidence for it being called that?

Edited June 6, 2016 by norbold

[moxey63]

Ooops sorry, yes, compost, I missed that before. July 3rd is a Midlands v. South Cup: Plymouth 41 Southampton 54 in Stenners.

 

Incidentally, moxey, where did you get North v. South Cup from as it seems to be Midlands v. South Cup? Is that a mistake on the Speedway Researcher site or is there other evidence for it being called that?

Yes, Norbold, it is either North or Midlands vs South, depending on where you look!

 

Speedway facts are like that troublesome splinter that is so enjoyable at prizing out!

 

Be nice to have a detailed list of all the competitions that took place between 1946-64, the meaningful ones, so nothing is left to chance and something may be left out. I have some side-of-the-plate ones that I was going to include but am finding it hard to fathom whether all the seasons are complete. So maybe I'm best sticking to the major tournaments, ones I can vouch for the winners of!

 

Incidentally, the Final of the North/South Cup 1947 must have been penciled in as one legged, as the 1948 conclusion was also one-legged between Hull and Southampton at Cradley Heath's track.

[daveallan81]

The results files on Researcher are about to undergo a major overhaul as there are a few 'errors' coming to light as people advance with their research. There's an awful lot of regurgitation on the internet, by that I mean people merely publishing what they find as fact, so it's good that others take it that step further to cross-reference and check as much as they can.