Stadium Racing

[Humphrey Appleby]

49 minutes ago, Ray Stadia said:

It seems that many of the current promoters, with the exception of the Isle of Wight, just want to carry on with the same formula. It would appear they are not interested in getting round a table with marketing people, supporters of the sport, riders etc. 

This is the tricky part.

If you ask the remaining fans of the sport, you'll get multiple answers that will probably coalesce along the lines of returning to the 'good 13 heats + proper 2nd half' with riders marching out to Imperial Echoes. You really need to be asking people who don't go - your potential new audiences, but you're assuming they've even heard of speedway in the first place.

With respect to marketing people - speedway is really an odd outlier of a sport and I think the average marketing type just wouldn't grasp the essence of the sport and would do more damage with ideas that just wouldn't work. You really need to find someone who's got a modicum of knowledge of the sport to start with, and that's going to be like finding a unicorn. 

A tough challenge. 

[Sings4Speedway]

56 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

This is the tricky part.

If you ask the remaining fans of the sport, you'll get multiple answers that will probably coalesce along the lines of returning to the 'good 13 heats + proper 2nd half' with riders marching out to Imperial Echoes. You really need to be asking people who don't go - your potential new audiences, but you're assuming they've even heard of speedway in the first place.

With respect to marketing people - speedway is really an odd outlier of a sport and I think the average marketing type just wouldn't grasp the essence of the sport and would do more damage with ideas that just wouldn't work. You really need to find someone who's got a modicum of knowledge of the sport to start with, and that's going to be like finding a unicorn. 

A tough challenge. 

A big problem that has been raised before is that Speedway Fans are split distinctly into two groups namely supporters of a given team and only have interest in that and supporters of the sport who have no team allegiance just enjoy the spectacle on show. 

I for one feel that the league format could be scrapped, needing to generate funds for away meetings off the home gate just isn't working. 600 fans trying to cover stadium rents, 2 lots of travel, 2 lots of points monies etc just isn't working and is leaving a financial hole. Organise your home meetings on the day and time that works best for your fan base and run the meeting formats that suit best. Even if thats 7 vs 7 team meetings the host club can build competitive opposition to help generate a better gate. 

Should teams then want to get together and run mini leagues amongst themselves should their attendances support it. But the primary role of any promotion should be to promote their own venue, its clear that there has been no sensible collaboration between clubs over the years and thats what has generated the mess so switch it back to looking after number 1. The clubs that look after their fan base best will survive and those who don't will fold but at least it gives all clubs a fighting chance. 

[bluebee]

I think scrapping the league format would be a big mistake.  It allows riders of different abilities to race at the same meeting in a meaningful way. Both myself and my daughters much prefer it. The razzle, dazzle of a Cardiff GP doesn't match a good league meeting in my opinion. Change the league format (regional competitions before a national play off perhaps) by all means but don't drop teams.

[mikebv]

If you want to keep team racing then run it properly with credibility and integrity, at the correct level decreed by the clubs' fan base levels, not the level that the ego"s of the promoters want their clubs to race at....

And run it on days when you can get your best crowds in, not when your employees tell you that they are available..

And do this once a fortnight but more if your fan base supports it...

And dont charge more than £15 for an adult and definitely not more that £30 for two adults and their kids, but if you do charge more than £30, then dont expect most of these families to pay it more than once per month at best..

And if you cant meet the costs using that max £15 price point (£30 family ticket), then reduce your outgoings accordingly until you can..  

 

[SteveLyric2]

7 minutes ago, mikebv said:

If you want to keep team racing then run it properly with credibility and integrity, at the correct level decreed by the clubs' fan base levels, not the level that the ego"s of the promoters want their clubs to race at....

And run it on days when you can get your best crowds in, not when your employees tell you that they are available..

And do this once a fortnight but more if your fan base supports it...

And dont charge more than £15 for an adult and definitely not more that £30 for two adults and their kids, but if you do charge more than £30, then dont expect most of these families to pay it more than once per month at best..

And if you cant meet the costs using that max £15 price point (£30 family ticket), then reduce your outgoings accordingly until you can..  

 

That assumes that all clubs are able to influence their outgoings?!!

[mikebv]

1 minute ago, Skidder1 said:

That assumes that all clubs are able to influence their outgoings?!!

??

Their largest outgoing is employee wages...

They are one million percent in charge of that.. 

[HackneyHawk]

On 5/26/2016 at 10:00 PM, Gresham said:

I'd agree with that...most other 'motor sports' have a following that seem to have a keen interest in the bikes or cars, many riding or driving, or tinkering.

 

Speedway has a few...but far less, from my experience, who could actually tell you about the workings of a Speedway bike, or have any interest in it what so ever.

 

Seems to be a following made from football, train spotting and darts :-)

 

If Speedway could find a way of harnessing that 'Club' feel in a better way, like football or rugby, then I feel things could improve spectator wise at tracks.

This is a brilliant post, completely agree.

In these very visual, information rich, internet days, can you imagine if people knew about local Speedway teams which had clear branding and affiliation (and merchandising) with local areas.  Teamwear is so popular and having a tribe/brand/team is very very popular.  Speedway IS the motorsport for people that don't particularly like motorsports, (me included) and we should play to those strengths

Speedway noise needs to be reduced, stadiums smartened (cheaply) presentation and advertising improved (there are cheap ways of making presentation better and increasing awareness)

It has to make sense as a sport of course and not be a sideshow that noone takes seriously.

Take Speedway away from the insular bumpkins who have a fantastic 'product' and have managed to reduce it from the second biggest spectator sport in the UK to barely a mention in the press.

[Ray Stadia]

19 minutes ago, HackneyHawk said:

This is a brilliant post, completely agree.

In these very visual, information rich, internet days, can you imagine if people knew about local Speedway teams which had clear branding and affiliation (and merchandising) with local areas.  Teamwear is so popular and having a tribe/brand/team is very very popular.  Speedway IS the motorsport for people that don't particularly like motorsports, (me included) and we should play to those strengths

Speedway noise needs to be reduced, stadiums smartened (cheaply) presentation and advertising improved (there are cheap ways of making presentation better and increasing awareness)

It has to make sense as a sport of course and not be a sideshow that noone takes seriously.

Take Speedway away from the insular bumpkins who have a fantastic 'product' and have managed to reduce it from the second biggest spectator sport in the UK to barely a mention in the press.

All too late I'm afraid. Sweep the decks and start again! Re-open High Beech!

[Humphrey Appleby]

4 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said:

A big problem that has been raised before is that Speedway Fans are split distinctly into two groups namely supporters of a given team and only have interest in that and supporters of the sport who have no team allegiance just enjoy the spectacle on show. 

I for one feel that the league format could be scrapped, needing to generate funds for away meetings off the home gate just isn't working. 600 fans trying to cover stadium rents, 2 lots of travel, 2 lots of points monies etc just isn't working and is leaving a financial hole. Organise your home meetings on the day and time that works best for your fan base and run the meeting formats that suit best. Even if thats 7 vs 7 team meetings the host club can build competitive opposition to help generate a better gate. 

Should teams then want to get together and run mini leagues amongst themselves should their attendances support it. But the primary role of any promotion should be to promote their own venue, its clear that there has been no sensible collaboration between clubs over the years and thats what has generated the mess so switch it back to looking after number 1. The clubs that look after their fan base best will survive and those who don't will fold but at least it gives all clubs a fighting chance. 

Maybe you need both leagues and open meetings. There may be a number of tracks that prefer league racing, whilst others want to stage other types of meetings. Perhaps even a combination of the two.

I'd imagine the reality is that most tracks don't have that many riders on their doorstep, so there would have to be some sharing of riders and travelling around even if you just ran open meetings. Plus seeing the same riders every week would get repetitive, so the costs of running league meetings may not actually end up being greater and it gives some context throughout the season.

However, these sorts of decisions need to be made on the basis of some sort of 'market research', even if that's just a promoter's knowledge of what works for them. 

[Humphrey Appleby]

1 hour ago, HackneyHawk said:

Take Speedway away from the insular bumpkins who have a fantastic 'product' and have managed to reduce it from the second biggest spectator sport in the UK to barely a mention in the press.

The problem is that the 'insular bumpkins' are the only ones who've kept the sport running, often with their own money. Anyone with any sense got out years ago (or died from the stress of it), and no-one with any sense would really want to get involved now. 

It's fairly easy to identify where it all went wrong down the years (and it's not all the fault of the promoters), but I suspect you'd end up with not many tracks if you 'took speedway away' from those running it now. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Humphrey Appleby

[Ray Stadia]

15 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Maybe you need both leagues and open meetings. There may be a number of tracks that prefer league racing, whilst others want to stage other types of meetings. Perhaps even a combination of the two.

I'd imagine the reality is that most tracks don't have that many riders on their doorstep, so there would have to be some sharing of riders and travelling around even if you just ran open meetings. Plus seeing the same riders every week would get repetitive, so the costs of running league meetings may not actually end up being greater and it gives some context throughout the season.

However, these sorts of decisions need to be made on the basis of some sort of 'market research', even if that's just a promoter's knowledge of what works for them. 

 

11 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

The problem is that the 'insular bumpkins' are the only ones who've kept the sport running, often with their own money. Anyone with any sense got out years ago (or died from the stress of it), and no-one with any sense would really want to get involved now. 

It's fairly easy to identify where it all went wrong down the years (and it's not all the fault of the promoters), but I suspect you'd end up with not many tracks if you 'took speedway away' from those running it now. 

Regarding your first post, if promoters/organisers/clubs tapped into grasstrack riders, I believe there would be sufficient. Also, many youngsters ride grasstrack, often sons and daughters of grasstrack riders and ex riders. It is a resource awfully and woefully overlooked. Grasstrack riders are crying out for 'track time' . I think the trouble, is the mindset. As someone else said, possibly yourself, there are 2 types of fans, those only interested in their team winning and those that enjoy the racing for what it is. Grasstrack fans and riders enjoy the racing. Speedway needs to attract those fans and I believe they are out there.

Point 2, I personally think there have been very few promoters over the years who have made money out of the sport, John Berry, according to his book did, but I don't think it made him rich. Speedway promoters are enthusiasts and perhaps, egotists, but then, a lot of sports are like that. football clubs lose money, as do rugby clubs. But football and rugby seem to find benefactors  who will bail them out. Why speedway doesn't, I'm not sure. Perhaps it's the demographic of the fans as a whole or simply the sheer lack of numbers. I agree it's not just the fault of the promoters, but someone has to carry the can! Foreign riders certainly hasn't helped with the costs and allowing machinery costs to runaway hasn't helped either. Why can't speedway or a type of speedway, switch to an amateur model, similar to the way grasstrack, moto X, trials is run? There are riders in all three disciplines who do make a living, but the cream only. The rest, just enjoy a Sunday ride in the summer! 

 

 

[Humphrey Appleby]

51 minutes ago, Ray Stadia said:

Point 2, I personally think there have been very few promoters over the years who have made money out of the sport, John Berry, according to his book did, but I don't think it made him rich. Speedway promoters are enthusiasts and perhaps, egotists, but then, a lot of sports are like that. football clubs lose money, as do rugby clubs. But football and rugby seem to find benefactors  who will bail them out. Why speedway doesn't, I'm not sure. Perhaps it's the demographic of the fans as a whole or simply the sheer lack of numbers. I agree it's not just the fault of the promoters, but someone has to carry the can! Foreign riders certainly hasn't helped with the costs and allowing machinery costs to runaway hasn't helped either. Why can't speedway or a type of speedway, switch to an amateur model, similar to the way grasstrack, moto X, trials is run? There are riders in all three disciplines who do make a living, but the cream only. The rest, just enjoy a Sunday ride in the summer! 

I think there will have been 'professional' promoters in the past who made money, especially the ones who ran the tracks in prime locations (in speedway terms). But for the more marginal tracks, it was probably always a struggle and one poor season could wipe you out, as evidenced by the number of promoters who lost their shirts.

Football is a much more popular sport than speedway, so the odds on finding a wealthy benefactor to bail out a club is much higher. Rugby Union is generally followed by more monied and well connected people, who can always bung in some cash or link up clubs with sponsors or financiers.

I'm afraid that speedway is largely the domain of the used car salesman, scrap merchant or self-made fly-by-night merchant who's done alright for themselves, but probably isn't into longer-term business planning and structured financing. And it's harder to attract sponsorship from anything other than local van hire centre because of the perceived demographic of speedway supporters - what will be their return on investment? 

As for speedway running at an amateur or other level, I don't think you can really expect to run regular (i.e. weekly or fortnightly) spectator motorsport in 'proper' stadiums without remunerating the competitors in some way, and even less so if they're expected to travel anything more than very local distances. They will have significant travel, equipment and running costs, and whilst they might be willing to do it for the love of the sport once a month, a weekly obligation is a bit much and I very much doubt you'd find enough riders to make that sort of commitment. 

Grasstrack riders can pick and choose their meetings because they're not contracted or have obligations to particular tracks. There may be a handful of grasstrackers who're able to make a living doing weekly meetings, but I'd suggest it's really only very few who're able to do this and I'd be surprised if the average amateur grasstracker is riding every week. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Humphrey Appleby

[Ray Stadia]

56 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I think there will have been 'professional' promoters in the past who made money, especially the ones who ran the tracks in prime locations (in speedway terms). But for the more marginal tracks, it was probably always a struggle and one poor season could wipe you out, as evidenced by the number of promoters who lost their shirts.

Football is a much more popular sport than speedway, so the odds on finding a wealthy benefactor to bail out a club is much higher. Rugby Union is generally followed by more monied and well connected people, who can always bung in some cash or link up clubs with sponsors or financiers.

I'm afraid that speedway is largely the domain of the used car salesman, scrap merchant or self-made fly-by-night merchant who's done alright for themselves, but probably isn't into longer-term business planning and structured financing. And it's harder to attract sponsorship from anything other than local van hire centre because of the perceived demographic of speedway supporters - what will be their return on investment? 

As for speedway running at an amateur or other level, I don't think you can really expect to run regular (i.e. weekly or fortnightly) spectator motorsport in 'proper' stadiums without remunerating the competitors in some way, and even less so if they're expected to travel anything more than very local distances. They will have significant travel, equipment and running costs, and whilst they might be willing to do it for the love of the sport once a month, a weekly obligation is a bit much and I very much doubt you'd find enough riders to make that sort of commitment. 

Grasstrack riders can pick and choose their meetings because they're not contracted or have obligations to particular tracks. There may be a handful of grasstrackers who're able to make a living doing weekly meetings, but I'd suggest it's really only very few who're able to do this and I'd be surprised if the average amateur grasstracker is riding every week. 

Believe me, they would do, if they could. The reason they can't is the lack of meetings. There are grasstrack riders, complete amateurs, who will travel from Essex to ride in Cornwall, because they love the sport. In the 70's, just in the Eastern Centre (Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk), you could ride virtually every week, there were that many meetings. Many speedway riders rode on grass also in those days. Speedway over the years has grown snooty towards grasstrack and I don't know why? The funny thing is, from what I see on Facebook, grasstrack seems to be on the up.  

[Humphrey Appleby]

1 hour ago, Ray Stadia said:

Believe me, they would do, if they could. The reason they can't is the lack of meetings.

But why is there a lack of meetings? Either the demand isn't there - from either riders or spectators, or there's insufficient volunteer effort to organise more meetings. 

And this exactly demonstrates the problem if speedway tries to run along amateur lines. It will go from a sport where fans know they can turn up every week (or at least every fortnight) to an occasional one.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Humphrey Appleby

[Hawk127]

1 hour ago, Ray Stadia said:

Believe me, they would do, if they could. The reason they can't is the lack of meetings. There are grasstrack riders, complete amateurs, who will travel from Essex to ride in Cornwall, because they love the sport. In the 70's, just in the Eastern Centre (Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk), you could ride virtually every week, there were that many meetings. Many speedway riders rode on grass also in those days. Speedway over the years has grown snooty towards grasstrack and I don't know why? The funny thing is, from what I see on Facebook, grasstrack seems to be on the up.  

Out of interest do grass track riders have the same over the top expenditure for the bike, are they forced into using a particular tyre, do the bikes engines last more than a few meetings before having to be rebuilt, do they have to use expensive engine tuners? 

One of the problems with speedway is that it portrays itself as a working mans sport but the participants need wealthy benefactors simply to start a bike up let alone ride the thing.

Take speedway back to basics and make it affordable and then a few more grass track riders might consider taking up speedway on a part time basis. I do agree that back in the 70’s and 80’s you would see speedway riders at grass track meetings and I like many others use to attend grass track when you had a top name speedway rider in the meeting like. Dave Jessup or many of the witches riders from that era.

As has been mentioned by numerous people, stadiums/clubs need to run on days that suit the local market and with so few league meetings and shortage of riders it makes no sense to run with seven man teams. You need to reduce these to five or even four and run a league format that can be fulfilled on the basis of rider availability and then run individual meetings or meaningful second half individual events that could in effect be a British Championship with the top twenty scorers at the end of the season participating in a grand finale like an old world championship final. 

Something needs to change as what is on offer now has virtually no appeal hence dwindling crowds and poor t v coverage. Speedway U.K. at domestic level needs to forget the rest of the world and run on its own terms. Overseas riders can take it or leave it but few clubs can realistically afford to employ an overseas rider without a serious sponsor, hence that tells you that in the cold light of day the business model that includes non British riders is on viable.

[Hawk127]

8 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

But why is there a lack of meetings? Either the demand isn't there - from either riders or spectators, or there's insufficient volunteer effort to organise more meetings. 

And this exactly demonstrates the problem if speedway tries to run along amateur lines. It will go from a sport where fans know they can turn up every week (or at least every fortnight) to an occasional one.

The IOW seem to be doing OK and in reality have always run during the summer months when they are reasonably confident of getting a good turnout. Speedway has generally become unreliable with say the hint of dampness in the air and a meeting is called off. Few riders are prepared to tackle a track and adapt to the prevailing conditions and the weekly fix is dead and buried. People have found other things to do since the riders and clubs took the punters for granted and treated them with such contempt over the last few years. Sorry to say but most clubs and owners are their own worst enemy and many have lost the plot coming out with the begging bowl when things get tough which shows how unsound their business plans are and the model they use.

[IainB]

4 minutes ago, Hawk127 said:

with say the hint of dampness in the air and a meeting is called off. Few riders are prepared to tackle a track and adapt to the prevailing conditions and the weekly fix is dead and buried.

It doesn't even have to be a hint in the air, these days even a forecast of a hint of dampness in the air is enough to cancel for some tracks

Edited August 4, 2021 by iainb

[Humphrey Appleby]

5 minutes ago, Hawk127 said:

The IOW seem to be doing OK and in reality have always run during the summer months when they are reasonably confident of getting a good turnout. Speedway has generally become unreliable with say the hint of dampness in the air and a meeting is called off. Few riders are prepared to tackle a track and adapt to the prevailing conditions and the weekly fix is dead and buried. 

The IOW are still running every week during their short season though, so there's some continuity.

The IOW has always had some quite unique circumstances and they're obviously trying to do what they think works for them (and good luck to them). But unless people want speedway to be crammed into an IPL-type season, it's not going to work for the sport as a whole. 

With respect to rain-offs, well the fact there's apparently been so little research into improving the surfaces so they can stand up to rain, has been one of the major problems with the sport. Cricket still has its rain-offs, but improved surfaces and drainage means that surfaces can be made playable quite quickly after all but the worst downpours. 

I never really understood why speedway couldn't have cricket style covers (pitched and ventilated) or even canopies or cantilevered roofs over the track. Maybe not affordable for all tracks, but perhaps for the more premier ones. 

[Ray Stadia]

21 minutes ago, Hawk127 said:

Out of interest do grass track riders have the same over the top expenditure for the bike, are they forced into using a particular tyre, do the bikes engines last more than a few meetings before having to be rebuilt, do they have to use expensive engine tuners? 

One of the problems with speedway is that it portrays itself as a working mans sport but the participants need wealthy benefactors simply to start a bike up let alone ride the thing.

Take speedway back to basics and make it affordable and then a few more grass track riders might consider taking up speedway on a part time basis. I do agree that back in the 70’s and 80’s you would see speedway riders at grass track meetings and I like many others use to attend grass track when you had a top name speedway rider in the meeting like. Dave Jessup or many of the witches riders from that era.

As has been mentioned by numerous people, stadiums/clubs need to run on days that suit the local market and with so few league meetings and shortage of riders it makes no sense to run with seven man teams. You need to reduce these to five or even four and run a league format that can be fulfilled on the basis of rider availability and then run individual meetings or meaningful second half individual events that could in effect be a British Championship with the top twenty scorers at the end of the season participating in a grand finale like an old world championship final. 

Something needs to change as what is on offer now has virtually no appeal hence dwindling crowds and poor t v coverage. Speedway U.K. at domestic level needs to forget the rest of the world and run on its own terms. Overseas riders can take it or leave it but few clubs can realistically afford to employ an overseas rider without a serious sponsor, hence that tells you that in the cold light of day the business model that includes non British riders is on viable.

Many riders just have the one bike, some may have two for the same class, i.e. 2 500cc bikes. Some may ride in both say, 350cc and 500cc, so will have 2 bikes, one for each class. I don't think they are forced to use a particular tyre. I think the rim size mostly used is 22 inches and Barum used to be the tyre of choice. That may have altered now. Some will rebuild their own engines or a family member, but most, especially those using GMs and Jawas (250,350 and 500cc), will have their engine rebuilt by a competent engine builder, but many, every 2 years, some every year. Between meetings, just check tappets, strip the clutch down, maybe clean chains, air filter, just general servicing.  

[Fortythirtyeight]

On 8/3/2021 at 6:46 PM, Fromafar said:

How many Clubs pay for 12 months rent.That is the question.

Most of those that don’t own their own stadium as that’s how they retain the right to run at the stadium, it would be simpler to ask ‘ who owns their own stadium ‘ ? The answer is ….very few !