Concrete Starting Grids...

[ColinMills]

think you will find this is a discussion thread on a forum...now I personally never saw the concrete starts, and I was also unaware that somebody died on them. but now you "politely" inform me of this I understand your point of view....not to difficult to be polite is it? intead of calling a thread mental?

[Vince]

How do we know...has anyone tried it? A lot of assumptions on here otherwise.

 

The dirt and shale would build up onto the surface during racing...you would only need a strip of concrete a bike and half's length.

 

Whenever any suggestion is made to benefit the sport, it seems people want to find reasons not to do it.

 

Perhaps if tracks were deeper with more shale on, we could go back to bikes with less revs, and a different gearing to stop wheels spinning furiously.

 

If it worked in the past...why not?

 

It seems the only reason it stopped was because of a lip...that could be rectified by creating an angle, and tapering it down to the base.

 

You've only got to watch flat track racing to see dirt and concrete can be worked together.

 

Who knows until you try something...surely it would have to be tested first?

 

I rode at Peterborough the weekend on a flat track bike that is a lot more forgiving than a Speedway bike and if there had been a concrete start pad I would have put the bike back in the van before even starting it. You barely get the bike upright around there and the idea of the grip level changing back and forward just after and just before a corner is, quite frankly, completely nuts.

 

Where you get the idea that flat track combines dirt and concrete I have no idea.

 

No matter how smooth the lip there will be

 

A: a huge difference in grip levels not only when racing but at sometime immediately after gating. Not so much of an issue (although as has been said there were issues) with a 40hp or less long wheelbase bike of the past but with nearly double the power output to deal with hugely dangerous today.

 

B: because you get ripples and ruts in dirt surfaces there will be a lip in at least some spots.

 

I have an idea you could strap a couple of pieces of shaped plywood to your arms and fly. Would you care to jump off a cliff to try it for me because I happen to think it's a good idea?

[BWitcher]

 

I have an idea you could strap a couple of pieces of shaped plywood to your arms and fly. Would you care to jump off a cliff to try it for me because I happen to think it's a good idea?

 

The wood was better in the old days, could fly for miles.

 

These days people just fall straight down, so boring.

[Gresham]

 

I rode at Peterborough the weekend on a flat track bike that is a lot more forgiving than a Speedway bike and if there had been a concrete start pad I would have put the bike back in the van before even starting it. You barely get the bike upright around there and the idea of the grip level changing back and forward just after and just before a corner is, quite frankly, completely nuts.

 

Where you get the idea that flat track combines dirt and concrete I have no idea.

 

No matter how smooth the lip there will be

 

A: a huge difference in grip levels not only when racing but at sometime immediately after gating. Not so much of an issue (although as has been said there were issues) with a 40hp or less long wheelbase bike of the past but with nearly double the power output to deal with hugely dangerous today.

 

B: because you get ripples and ruts in dirt surfaces there will be a lip in at least some spots.

 

I have an idea you could strap a couple of pieces of shaped plywood to your arms and fly. Would you care to jump off a cliff to try it for me because I happen to think it's a good idea?

So your saying a strip of concrete a bike and half lengths long, would cause a massive problem on the straight?

 

Regardless of ruts...how are you going to get a 'lip' if the concrete is tapered at say 30%...you may get a small rise, but how is that going to effect the bike, especially when you see how deep the ruts are that the riders are flying over at the moment.

 

Everyone is looking at this idea and finding reasons for it not to work, based on how tracks and bikes are now.

 

How about looking at it from a different angle, and changing how a bike has it's clutch set, and gearing etc.

 

How about making a track more suitable to fit?

 

I've seen riders flip their bikes at the start on normal tracks, numerous times. Mainly in the past though...80's.

 

I've also practiced starts on concrete and tarmac...however it was on Westlake and Jawa uprights.

 

Yes it was different to shale...it just meant different clutch set up and control.

 

The idea to give a better and fairer starting grid and stop 'gardening'...doesn't mean 'it won't work'...sometimes you have to change things to make them work.

 

Tracks and bikes have all evolved...why not consider a fairer starting grid?

 

You are probably right, it would be difficult with tracks that are small, and possibly with how the bikes are set up now...but why just say 'No'...why not find a way of making it work. If it means altering other parts of the sport in it's present state, for the better, then why not?

 

According to the information I found, it only stopped because riders didn't like the lip.

 

That could be remedied.

 

If it could be proved it wouldn't work, then so be it...but why not give it a try?

[A ORLOV]

The safest way this could be done is if it is like the start at the motocross, ie on a short spur leading into the racing circuit.

[Ben91]

How do we know...has anyone tried it? A lot of assumptions on here otherwise.

 

The dirt and shale would build up onto the surface during racing...you would only need a strip of concrete a bike and half's length.

 

Whenever any suggestion is made to benefit the sport, it seems people want to find reasons not to do it.

 

Perhaps if tracks were deeper with more shale on, we could go back to bikes with less revs, and a different gearing to stop wheels spinning furiously.

 

If it worked in the past...why not?

 

It seems the only reason it stopped was because of a lip...that could be rectified by creating an angle, and tapering it down to the base.

 

You've only got to watch flat track racing to see dirt and concrete can be worked together.

 

Who knows until you try something...surely it would have to be tested first?

 

Yes, it was tried and stopped because it was dangerous. I think that has been quite clearly pointed out.

 

The change in surfaces when going at such high speed would be incredibly dangerous.

 

This wouldn't benefit the sport, it's been tried before and didn't work, because it was dangerous.

 

Yeah, lets completely change the sport just so we can have a concrete strip on each track...

 

Creating an angle could also be creating a ramp, there has to be a lip somewhere still.

 

It has been tried. It didn't work.

[Gresham]

 

Yes, it was tried and stopped because it was dangerous. I think that has been quite clearly pointed out.

 

The change in surfaces when going at such high speed would be incredibly dangerous.

 

This wouldn't benefit the sport, it's been tried before and didn't work, because it was dangerous.

 

Yeah, lets completely change the sport just so we can have a concrete strip on each track...

 

Creating an angle could also be creating a ramp, there has to be a lip somewhere still.

 

It has been tried. It didn't work.

Can you show me documentation of how you came to that conclusion?

 

All I've seen, are some forum members thinking it would be dangerous...no proof.

 

From the link I posted earlier...it say's Riders didn't like the concrete and preferred the tarmac or asphalt.

 

There is nothing in there saying it was scraped because it was deemed dangerous.

 

It ran for many years, from just after the war until the late 50's.

 

If it caused crash's on a regular basis, it would have been scraped immediately.

 

If it was stopped for that reason, then so be it....but I've seen no proof to say it was because it was dangerous.

[iris123]

Thing is as you have admitted,it was tried and scrapped.And if it was just because of a lip,i think people at the time would have been clever enough to think ok,we make it a 30 degree angle and job done.Doubt they just thought it had to have a lip or it won't work

 

If you came up with a new idea,then ok,suck it and see.But you have just thought about an old idea that was kicked out after a number of seasons.In America they had wooden board tracks that went for a number of years and then were scrapped and haven't been resurrected even though they were very spectacular and even dangerous.Sure now they might be able to make them less dangerous,but times have moved on

[Vince]

So your saying a strip of concrete a bike and half lengths long, would cause a massive problem on the straight?

Yes, absolutely 100% definitely

 

Regardless of ruts...how are you going to get a 'lip' if the concrete is tapered at say 30%...you may get a small rise, but how is that going to effect the bike, especially when you see how deep the ruts are that the riders are flying over at the moment.

Because no matter what you do shale moves and concrete doesn't. The ruts go in the same direction as the bikes, a concrete lip would be going across the track.

 

Everyone is looking at this idea and finding reasons for it not to work, based on how tracks and bikes are now.

 

How about looking at it from a different angle, and changing how a bike has it's clutch set, and gearing etc.

 

How about making a track more suitable to fit?

How about finding a different solution to unfair gates that isn't going to kill anybody? Staggered start line, choice of gates for the team behind, different preparation of the gate area. Fairer starts I'm all for, gardening I don't see as much of a problem since the starter and ref can put a stop to it any time they want.

 

I've seen riders flip their bikes at the start on normal tracks, numerous times. Mainly in the past though...80's.

It's always going to happen now and again, the transition to grip from wheelspin as you hit the shale would be a nightmare and make flipping a regular event in my opinion.

 

I've also practiced starts on concrete and tarmac...however it was on Westlake and Jawa uprights.

You can practice starts on any bike on any surface as long as its reasonably consistent. Try starting on wet grass with a bit of tarmac a bike length in front of you and see how it goes.

 

Yes it was different to shale...it just meant different clutch set up and control.

 

The idea to give a better and fairer starting grid and stop 'gardening'...doesn't mean 'it won't work'...sometimes you have to change things to make them work.

 

Tracks and bikes have all evolved...why not consider a fairer starting grid?

 

You are probably right, it would be difficult with tracks that are small, and possibly with how the bikes are set up now...but why just say 'No'...why not find a way of making it work. If it means altering other parts of the sport in it's present state, for the better, then why not?

In my opinion it's an idea that is dangerous and there are far better options including the current one

 

According to the information I found, it only stopped because riders didn't like the lip.

 

That could be remedied.

Not in my opinion

 

If it could be proved it wouldn't work, then so be it...but why not give it a try?

Because there is a very real chance of somebody getting seriously hurt

[Gresham]

Fair points from Iris and Vince...may not agree with them all, but thanks for taking the time.

[Tsunami]

Fair points from Iris and Vince...may not agree with them all, but thanks for taking the time.

One thinks someone has a lot of time on his hands and wants to rubbish all other conclusions, until they are dragged back to believe the answer was obvious from the start. Are you for real ?

[Gresham]

One thinks someone has a lot of time on his hands and wants to rubbish all other conclusions, until they are dragged back to believe the answer was obvious from the start. Are you for real ?

WTF!...how have I rubbished other peoples conclusions.

 

One can think all they like...but you'd be wrong.

 

I agree with some points...don't with others...I'm not going to go round in circles, trying to prove a point, if others feel differently.

 

They have their views...I have mine.

 

Kinnel...this forum has some right odd people on it.

 

'You will be told...you will change your mind...If I write it in capitals and say it enough times, it becomes fact. You will conform to our way of thinking...We will tell you what you are thinking...even though we haven't got a clue...you do not belong to the clique...so do not attempt to discuss'

 

Every thread becomes personal attacks... no wonder so many have fecked off to FB.

 

As for time...are you taking the piss? Nearly 25,000 posts...jeezus...I think it's you who needs to get real.

 

By the way...I'd like to add a few 'emotions' to show this post is tongue in cheek...but that's been stopped by the forum police too...feck me, no pics and no emotions...it's like being in the 80's...oh hang on...don't go there...it's the same but different...or is it? Doh!

[BWitcher]

One thinks someone has a lot of time on his hands and wants to rubbish all other conclusions, until they are dragged back to believe the answer was obvious from the start. Are you for real ?

 

He'll put you on ignore if you don't watch out..

 

But will post

 

About 100 lines

 

To let you know of that fact

Edited May 17, 2016 by BWitcher

[teddy2706]

Is it not difficult to keep the shale graded at the same Ievel as the concrete start section therefore sometimes causing either a lump or a drop in level causing the bikes to jump in the air when they hit it.

Could I suggest that you closely examine the deep grooves at starting gates after a few heats, is an inch or so of concrete really going to be more dramatic?

Edited May 17, 2016 by oldsparky

[Vince]

As I said before those ruts are in the direction the bikes travel the concrete would be at 90 degrees so a completely different proposition

[Gresham]

As I said before those ruts are in the direction the bikes travel the concrete would be at 90 degrees so a completely different proposition

I can understand your theory before, of a spinning tyre hitting concrete after being on shale, proving difficult.

 

However...as I explained...if a concrete or tarmac slab was built which tapered, you wouldn't get a lip.

 

The shale would sit nicely in balance with the tapered slab.

 

After each race, the four starting marshall's could brush/grade any shale into place if needed to

Edited May 17, 2016 by Gresham

[waiheke1]

Vincent has explained about 3 times that the main issue is the difference in grip between the concrete and the rest of the track? I'm not sure how your post addresses this?

[BWitcher]

Vincent has explained about 3 times that the main issue is the difference in grip between the concrete and the rest of the track? I'm not sure how your post addresses this?

 

kin hell, are you a bell end or what?

[Gresham]

Vincent has explained about 3 times that the main issue is the difference in grip between the concrete and the rest of the track? I'm not sure how your post addresses this?

Which I acknowledged in my first sentence...where I agreed it could be an issue.

 

I addressed the issue about 'lip' only, which he spoke of in his previous post.

 

I didn't address the issue of 'grip' as I have no answer to that.

 

However...that doesn't mean it couldn't be addressed by an expert.

 

By the way...I don't consider you a bell end...only Witch, who's following me around like some lost troll.

 

Bit of a weirdo apparently.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Gresham

[Robert Lee]

You could have the concrete start grid on the infield, somewhere near the 3rd bend, feeding into the track about where the tapes are now. Voilà! No gardening, no concrete on the track. Dream on, you'd need brains in the BSPA to figure that one out.........