CB252 Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 BSPA meeting today to discuss the clarification and properly-worded addendum to the rules regarding whether Adam Ellis can be replaced by an 8 point guest or a Tier 2 EDR no hoper at 3 for Wednesday? The obvious, and sane, solution is for Kurtz to revert to the top 5 on Wednesday and a FTR guest to be permitted for Ellis in a reserve berth. Surely each team must have two FTRs in their starting line up? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 You wish he ran out of fuel . Know all. Junior He still finished in front! And the champ to whom you refer, wouldn't probably be champ if all those entitled to enter had done so. Circumstances can often play a part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ndbendbeerhut Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Does Holder have to ride in the UK to gain a work permit and reside here? Or does it change as his "missus" is British and has a family here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourentee Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 BSPA meeting today to discuss the clarification and properly-worded addendum to the rules regarding whether Adam Ellis can be replaced by an 8 point guest or a Tier 2 EDR no hoper at 3 for Wednesday? Josh Auty, apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaColette Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Does Holder have to ride in the UK to gain a work permit and reside here? Or does it change as his "missus" is British and has a family here?He missed a season here a few seasons ago and still lived here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) Many years ago a rather awful daytime TV show was hosted by Robert Kilroy-Silk called "Share or Shaft". Clips often emerge in TV satire shows. Why is it that everytime I think of that programme I think of a BSPA meeting? One prominent announcer used to refer to his promoter as 'Sideways Sid' not because he'd been a broadsider but he never looked you in the eye and could not be straight. Eventually when you twist and twist the rules you get a fiasco like this. Sadly it was always coming and I think we know it's going to be a heat-leader replacing Ellis, not an FTR don't we? "All in the best interests of (my) speedway". (EDIT - It was called 'Shafted' and ran for 4 episodes. Wikipedia has the story. Any resemblance to any sporting bodies is coincidental. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafted ) Wrong again rmc, never mind eh?! Incidentally they are EDRs now rather than FTRs!! Edited May 3, 2016 by Skidder1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) Why are people not understanding the rules!! There has to be two EDR riders in every team. If one of them is injured they can only be replaced by like for like, hence Auty is in for Ellis. Otherwise once Ellis and Newman get false averages then they can be replaced by 2 eight pointers!!! The rule is simple......... 2 EDR riders in the team! Edited May 3, 2016 by Gavan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) 17.4.2 says a re-declared team must include 2 EDRs. The supplementary rule that appears on the EDR list says that Tier 1s can be replaced by anyone lower on the list or a British PL rider with a lower PL average and no EL 1-5 place. After Robbogate the MC added an EL average to the restrictions. To me, all that means that an EDR is always an EDR and if you're not an EDR you're a "1-5" irrespective of actual riding position, which the team line up rules only refer to by MA. Note to the BSPA: Adding a rule to a rule added to the rule in the rule book probably isn't the best way to do things. While that makes some sense, the issue is that by riding in the 1-5 he is a 1-5 rider. In fact the rules state 1-3 ride at 1,3 or 5 and Adam is doing exactly that so he's a 1-3 rider but not a 1-5 rider but an EDR Why are people not understanding the rules!! There has to be two EDR riders in every team. If one of them is injured they can only be replaced by like for like, hence Auty is in for Ellis. Otherwise once Ellis and Newman get false averages then they can be replaced by 2 eight pointers!!! The rule is simple......... 2 EDR riders in the team! A guest assumed the status of the rider he is replacing. So anyone guesting for Ellis IS an EDR. And how do you explain the rule that allowed any Brit PL rider with a lower average being eligible to guest for an EDR? Robbo could guest for Ellis now as Robbos EL average is lower. Robbo isn't an EDR. And they can't both be replaced by 8 pointers, one of them is always in reserve and the rules are quite explicit, an EDR in reserve can only be replaced by an EDR or a PL rider with a lower PL average. You're doing the typical speedway fan thing here of making up rules in your head to suit a situation you don't like. Fine, don't like it but don't make up rules. Edited May 3, 2016 by SCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Jones Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 While that makes some sense, the issue is that by riding in the 1-5 he is a 1-5 rider. In fact the rules state 1-3 ride at 1,3 or 5 and Adam is doing exactly that so he's a 1-3 rider but not a 1-5 rider but an EDR I'd say he's riding in the 1-5 but isn't a "1-5 rider" for the purposes of rule manipulation clarification obfuscation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Having followed Kurtz very closely from 2013, only seen him ride 3 times this year Poole, Lakeside & Wolves last night. And did he look all out of shape, but not surprised after watching him last year at Ipswich, Newcastle & perticully Edinburgh where he couldn't even turn the bike! I really think he needed another year in the PL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve0 Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 BSPA meeting today to discuss the clarification and properly-worded addendum to the rules regarding whether Adam Ellis can be replaced by an 8 point guest or a Tier 2 EDR no hoper at 3 for Wednesday? It is pretty clear if you view him as a Tier 2 EDR - which he is. The only muddying of the waters is when they are in the 1-5 and then all of a sudden people forget he is still an EDR and are trying to manipulate getting any rider whose average fits. If it is anyone other than a suitable EDR (or PL average less than Ellis) then they may as well just admit that they are a useless organisation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfsbane Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 According to the local rag GP surgeries in Wolverhampton were besieged with speedway fans this morning trying to get appointments complaining of vertigo. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve0 Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Josh Auty, apparently. So how come a Tier 1 EDR can replace a Tier 2 EDR?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) So how come a Tier 1 EDR can replace a Tier 2 EDR?? Because the rules allow ANY rider to replace a rider in the 1-5. But either Poole have played "fair" of the BSPA have decides thats silly. But the rule actually allow any rider with a lower average to guest. The rules do NOT state a team has to have 1 tier 2 and 1 tier two. The rules do state a DECLARED 1-7 must contained 2 EDRs. Nowhere does it mention what tier the EDRs are in anyway. 17.4 TEAM COMPOSITION (new for 2016)17.4.1 A Team’s initial Declaration may include the following: (a) a maximum of 3 x riders, graded as Heat Leaders. ( a maximum of 3 x Doubling-Up riders, (if 3 riders are nominated, 2 of whom must be nominated for one shared position, with the MA of the highest shared rider counting towards the Team’s total MA.) NB. A Doubling-Up rider can do so for 2 consecutive Seasons only and must at the time of declaration, be in a Premier League’s currently declared 1 – 7, have a PL MA established prior to the start of the season and give absolute priority to all British Speedway fixtures. © a maximum of 3 x EDR’s (if 3 riders are nominated, 2 of whom must be Tier 2 with the MA of the highest Tier 2 rider counting towards the Team’s total MA.) for the 6 th and 7 th positions. (d) a # 8, being a non-ACU licensed rider assessed at 4.00 who has not been included in any previous Team Declaration. (e) A Team’s initial Declaration for top 7 riders must not exceed 40.50 points. 17.4.1.1 A declared #8, can be used as a replacement at any time for a #1 to #5 Team Member 17.4.2 When re-declared, either permanently or temporarily, a Teams combined MA for the top 7 positions must not exceed 40.50 points, except where the MA of the introduced rider is equal to, or lower than the rider being replaced. A re-declaration must include two EDR’s. Conditions imposed in Art. 17.4.1 ( for Doubling-Up riders will still apply, but, after 1 st May not Art. 17.4.1 (a) for Heat Leaders. 17.5 TEAM LINE-UPS (new for 2016) Team notifications (Art. 16.4.1) will nominate 7 riders for the meeting, whose MA does not exceed the Teams current Total MA. Necessary “late” changes do not permit a team line-up to be re-shuffled, unless it is necessary according to the rules. [A switch of the RR Facility from #2 to #4 is not permitted 17.5.1 Only one EDR (the one with the highest MA) may move into a Team’s top 1-5. 17.5.2 Of the riders nominated for the meeting they will line up in the following positions a) The 1st, 2nd and 3rd riders (by MA) must ride at either #1 #3 or #5. The 4th and 5th riders (by MA) must ride at either #2 or #4. c) The 6th and 7th riders (by MA) must ride at #6 or #7. NB, only an EDR may ride at #7. The Speedway Regulations 41 17.6 FACILITIES a) Absent Rider (1-3) G or ARR Absent Rider (4 or 5) ARR only c) Absent Riders (both 4 and 5) ARR and G d) Absent #6 (if an EDR) G (EDR* only) e) Absent #6 (if not an EDR) G f) Absent #7 G (EDR* only) g) “No Facility” for Absent 1-5 PL G (PL MA of 6.00 or less) NB. *An EDR may guest for the same Team on a maximum of 4 occasions There you go. you're wrong. I'd say he's riding in the 1-5 but isn't a "1-5 rider" for the purposes of rule manipulation clarification obfuscation. Can and EDR that has moved into the 1-5 take a TR? If they can, then someone can guest for them too. If you can't have a guest for them then an EDR can't have a TR either. Edited May 3, 2016 by SCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superguest Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) It is pretty clear if you view him as a Tier 2 EDR - which he is. The only muddying of the waters is when they are in the 1-5 and then all of a sudden people forget he is still an EDR and are trying to manipulate getting any rider whose average fits. If it is anyone other than a suitable EDR (or PL average less than Ellis) then they may as well just admit that they are a useless organisation! However, at some point he will have an average from riding in the top 1-5 (likewise Charles Wright) . A team should then be able use a guest outside of the EDR list (for guest purposes only, not for redeclaring their team with better riders). Edited May 3, 2016 by superguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Wrong again rmc, never mind eh?! Incidentally they are EDRs now rather than FTRs!! Again? If this was something of real relevance rather than a petty sports forum dominated by the mentally-challenged I'd be worried. I appreciate that the actual acronym is the essence of the argument..... ....Honestly...... Perhaps we should give them their real description, cheap, exploited riders? Keep trying, someone will be impressed, I'm not. Your barrel must be getting pretty thin after all the petty scraping ;-) So for once you don't get your way. Makes a change, doesn't it? Perhaps you've been pushing your luck a little too far? I do enjoy our little discussions you know, it's so good not having to think, as opposed to dealing with normal people. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Shovlar Posted May 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Again? If this was something of real relevance rather than a petty sports forum dominated by the mentally-challenged I'd be worried. I appreciate that the actual acronym is the essence of the argument..... ....Honestly...... Perhaps we should give them their real description, cheap, exploited riders? Keep trying, someone will be impressed, I'm not. Your barrel must be getting pretty thin after all the petty scraping ;-) So for once you don't get your way. Makes a change, doesn't it? Perhaps you've been pushing your luck a little too far? I do enjoy our little discussions you know, it's so good not having to think, as opposed to dealing with normal people. . What a rude, ignorant poster you are. Full of venom on every thread. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 What a rude, ignorant poster you are. Full of venom on every thread. Bitter would be a better word 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Again? If this was something of real relevance rather than a petty sports forum dominated by the mentally-challenged I'd be worried. Well you got something right amongst all that dross you wrote. Whens your next Out patient appointment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 poole home form will see them thru 50-40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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